Great job so far everybody! But again, please see as many videos of others as possible and read my comments to others too - the more you read and the more videos you watch, the easier it will be to understand what you're going for and see it in real speed too.
Anyway, here is your new list:
1. gradually make that plank/set-up higher&higher, still jackpotting the best hits, but make a criteria for a jackpot somewhat more strict and at this point also stop clicking misses and almost-misses, even if the dog is striding equally. Jackpot really good hits only. It's no problem if the dog still gets the toy on every try, just take it immediately when he comes back. When it's good, praise and tug and when it's especially good, be especially excited and play especially enthusiastically 🙂 And yes, dogs are smart enough to know the difference.
2. as the dog is probably already searching for the plank better, slowly start throwing sooner&sooner. Don't rush it, but you eventually want to throw that soon that the dog is technically running to a static toy. But again, you don't want to get there sooner as in 3 weeks as it's only then that we'll start using a static toy - you do want to throw it for those 3 weeks more! It's better to throw somewhat longer if necessary - usually not an issue with BCs, but with my PyrShep puppy, I needed to throw VERY long to keep the speed and forward focus - if any of that gets weaker when you start throwing sooner, go back to whatever gives you back the speed and forward focus, we can deal with the rest later!
3. as you are still throwing a toy, your movement and position probably won't affect the dog's performance - but just to be sure, do try to run with the dog here and there, just to check if that's correct. If it does affect your dog's performance, add movement gradually, by first walking slowly along, then walking faster, running slowly etc. You don't need to do it on every try, especially not if it doesn't affect the performance, but do try it here and there.
4. another difficulty we can slowly start introducing now is changing starting position of your dog. If you use a low DW, you can use different approaches instead. Don't use the best spot all the time anymore, but vary it a little bit. If it makes their hits too bad, go back to the good starting position. But bad hit here and there is good, that's how they learn the difference between what gets rewarded and what doesn't.
5. new trick: shape a dog to go with all 4 feet in a box that is ideally as long as he is. Then gradually use smaller&smaller objects, your goal is the dog is standing with 4 feet in a small bowl. Good for balance and rear legs awareness! Also, teach backing up with you standing still, by throwing a reward for them first for one step back, then two and then add more&more distance. Great for rear legs awareness and coordination!
Here is our latest work. For the first two heights there were no problems, only a very occasional miss. The last hight is where we are now. This gets more misses (maybe as much as 40%). Should I stay here or go lower? It seems to be getting better, not worse.
I am using food on a stationary target. When I use a moving or stationary toy, she gets too excited and the runs become very jumpy. With the food she seems to focus better for this exercise. I think she targets the board fine. Either I send her up the board as in the first video, or place her at the start (its a bit high for her to jump up to the start while running) and by not running her up a plank I can do more repetitions of the down side without her getting tired.
I can change my own position to anywhere and it seems not to make a difference to the runs. I forgot to add the 4 feet in a box work to this video (but Silvia has seen her do that at least)
My only concern is that if she becomes exited and jumpy with a toy, that she will become exited and jumpy at the trial… It’s a very common problem with dogs trained with food: it looks good the whole process, but falls apart completely when you add excitement of the trial… That’s why I prefer toys so much more… If nothing else, try to fade that food as fast as possible, maybe set it after a straight tunnel for now, then slowly curve a tunnel and then switch to a throw toy after the tunnel vs. stationary food. That’s still better as stationary food, despite I would like to see her running after a toy thrown in advance too.
Anyway, her running looks good, I think the major reason she gets somewhat leapy on the last height is that your DW seems very bouncy. Try to fix it better and I would also remove the plank now and work with DW as the height looks the same now and the plank affects her striding (she always jumps over the beginning edge).
Until we get on with the plank, we have trained on four feets in a box.
Very cute! Time for a smaller one!
Hello again
Here is today’s exercise, Effie was in great shape today and she had fun. She had a giant leap but otherwise it was the jackpot every time. I have started her high?
Wenche
That’s quite some height that you added! But yeap, it looks good! Do you have enough room to build her an up ramp too, so that she can come to the plank with more speed? Or maybe at least use a bench or something longer to give her more room to build speed.
Hello Silivia!
It is a long time since I have posted any movie, but we certainly have trained. Since you wrote that the table the plank laid on maybe was a little too high, and that she should get more speed before the plank, I decided I might as well could make a low dogwalk. I’m not sure if this was a smart move, because it seems like she jumps any time she gets high speed, but I don’t know why. Because of this, I began to set her at the middle of the dogwalk, so she got less speed. After this she got more hits, but still she jumps sometimes. I don’t know what I do different when she hits and not… I tried to let my daughter hold her, so I got the chance to throw earlier, and that seemed to work a little. We have always tried to be aware of the importance to just reward and click when she hits. If she jumped, I immediately took the ball while I was quiet. So what should I do for her so that she hits 99% of the time?
The first movie is the oldest (one week ago), the second movie is from three days ago, while the last one is from todays training 🙂
Wenche
For the videos, the best is to only send slow motion, but of the whole down plank as I can see on normal speed where she hits the contact (or not), but I need to see how she moves before that to know how to help her. If I see correctly, she is nicely in when she doesn’t fly the apex, but hits the down plank right at the beginning with front feet and then does two more steps. When she flies it, she goes for just one more and is too high. How high is she and how long this down plank is? -- Just asking to try to guess what her final striding will be to know what to strive for. For now, keep working like this, you’re getting enough nice hits to jackpot.
Ok, thanks. Here is the last video in slow motion only. Effie is 34 cm tall and the down plank is 4 meters, while the top plank is 3,5 meters.
For now, I am starting her at the middle of the top plank. I try to successively start further and further back on the top plank. I wonder if I should I wait to do this, since she not always hits the field? Does the speed before the down plank determines whether she hits or not?
I think number 23 is the closest to what you’re going for. Nr.1 for example gets her deep in too, but she is doing 4 hits there and it’s unrealistic to expect that when she is running full speed. 3 hits are more realistic, but she does need speed to do that, so I’m surprised running whole DW makes her leap… Is she trying for 2 hits then??? Can you try a couple of whole DWs and send it, just to see? To me, it looks like she does the best when she is running with full speed (starting far enough back and a toy flying) and does 3 hits OR when she starts so close to the down ramp she doesn’t have much speed and can fit 4 hits in.
Hi
Effie runs over the dw in full speed, I think she has 3 nice hits, No. 3, 10 and 13 🙂
Huh, yes, she actually gets leapy with more speed… On most of those tries, her natural stride would take her nicely to the contact -- and yet she chooses to leap. She is not overstriding, but really leaping. She seems to do the best when you throw in the very last moment though, so you can try one more session, throwing as you do on those three good tries and see if you can get higher successful rate. If yes, you can throw late for now -- but if she still leaps so much you do need to go back to what you were doing before, that is too leapy.
Hello Silvia!
Here is a video from yesterday’s training and today’s training on the dw. Like you said, I have to throw the ball very late, preferably when she comes exactly next to me. As you can see in the video, she is leaping if I throw just a little bit too early. How can I avoid her leaping to get to throw earlier and earlier? In the last session, we made to hits in row several times, but never three… I do not feel we are ready for lesson three yet, so do you want me to continue to add the videos in lesson two?
We have also started to train some of the tricks, and both I and Effie think it very funny to train.
Wenche
For now, I would continue to throw late, to get more of those nice hits. Only once she has higher successful rate, we can start trying to get rid of it, but looks like with her, it might even be easier to go in the direction of a delayed throws as towards earlier throws… If she pulled well to tunnels, that would help too. But for now, keep working with late throws. You can post here or there, doesn’t really matter. Nice job with 2on2off! For a handstand, it’s better if they don’t climb though, so go to vertical object very fast and jackpot for pushes up vs. climbing up.
Oops. I posted in the wrong place before. Sorry about that. Here is Synergy from today. I left unedited real time so you could see that she is understanding the job. I edited the slo-mo to her running only.
Thanks,
Marla
Looks good! Of course, things can still get worse with a different set up, but it’s good to get many good hits on this set up first and then go from there. Is this a single plank already? If not, you can first go to a single plank, then add the other one as an up-ramp and then go to low DW.
Yes, this is a single plank. So, I should add the other plank as an upramp to the table, stay their for a while and then go to low DW?
Exactly.
Hi Silvia 🙂
just a question -- my idea is to have RC for straight exits, when turning after DW I prefer to have fast 2o2o. What you mean -- when is the right time to start to differ the two of these behaviors? I have two cues and Kiwi knows them but from the beggining of August, I train only the running part. Should I train the stop at the end of the plank eg once per 5 of runs? Or should I wait until I finish the running work a then I start to differ? Thanks for the answer 🙂
I mix in some stops when running is really good and on real DW, even if not at completely full height yet. To not surprise her too much, backchain a stop again and maybe do a session on just the stop. -- And then only running the next time. If you see she is not confused and runs just as good as before, try starting the next session with some 2on2off again and then finish it with running. Then slowly start to mix the two more and more, you just need to start gradually.
My work with Little Spur is very interesting. I set up into nothing at home and it was essentially leap, hit, leap, hit. The no reward worked for him enough to make a good hit the next time which I jackpotted. Then today I ran him both ways because I was seeing a slight head turn as he was looking for the ball and not ahead to anything. So, he went into nothing one direction for a few reps and then into a tunnel the other direction for a few reps. Into nothing he did some strange over-reaching with his back feet (hit the contact with front, then over reached to land on the group with hind), something I have never seen with him before. Then into the tunnel some good ones and a couple leaps. The good ones were sometimes just one front foot, but I rewarded because he was trying and had good feet seperation that I could see. (I do have some trouble seeing things with him.) It is like he is experimenting all of a sudden. I think he will work this out, but it is interesting to watch him trying all these things after having nearly 100% success for months. 😛
I’ll send video at some point with some from each session to compare. No sense making too many movies at this point as I do think he just needs to go through this and work it out.
Yes, experimental phases later on are actually not all that unusual, especially with dogs who need to collect some to hit it. Bi had a phase like that as she used to do two hits on down ramp (as she was trained all the way up on just one plank + a long table), but that got uncomfortable with more confidence and speed so she had a bad phase of trying one hit only and then finally discovered the beauties of 1.5 hits that made her more reliable again.
This was our first session using the up contact on the table with Lira. Moved the start around using a tunnel and jump. I think it went pretty well. She drove to the up contact and found her line nicely. Only one near miss.
She’s getting all four feet in a small box too. Love the tricks! Still working on backing up.
Judi she looks awesome!! Congrats!
Looks great! Low DW would be her next set up. Start with easy approaches and then move the starting jump/tunnel some again.
Hi Silvia,
Good news is that I changed the setup of the dogwalk to having a jump (instead of a tunnel) after the dogwalk and got really good results. I’m a bit shocked actually as the jump after the dogwalk used to be her worse setup but I guess she got bored with the tunnel after the dogwalk. Also, my arena is a bit short at the end where the dogwalk exit is ( if I have a straight tunnel ) so maybe she wasnt extending and running as hard because of that.
I’m just running with her to the jump and rewarding with a game of tug at the end.
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Tara
Great! Try to do some more sessions on this set up, selecting for the best, lower hits. I would probably also try throwing a toy after the jump vs. tugging immediately from your hand so that she learns to drive well ahead independently from where you are. If you get good hits over several sessions, you can try moving the first tunnel some or maybe change it to a jump and if that goes well, try moving and rotating the exit jump some too -- but no hurry, definitely try to get good consistent hits first.
Been a couple of weeks with ups and downs. Finally got a set up that seems to be working. Still have to put up barriers or my little 6 month old Pap runs next to the board not on it. She is still so young. If I have to help her on the board w/o the barriers and then throw the ball there is no time to watch her feet in the contact. If I have the barriers then I can see her feet after I throw the ball. I will post the clicker work next week. It is going well.
thanks,
Elise & Chirp
sending link again
Sure, no problem using the barriers. And yes, she is definitely doing by far the best on that last set up. On the ones before, she was very airy in her last stride even when she landed on a contact, but now she is running really well all the way, so definitely keep that set up for a while to have many things to jackpot. Then you can raise it a bit and introduce some other variables such as your movement etc.
I did not put this in slow mo as it seems easy enough to see being a small dog. Still having leaping problems even with the “good set up”. Any thoughts on how not to have her leap?
Wow, she is running sooo nicely in the beginning of the video!!! Very strange she then converts to leaping from exactly the same spot every time… Did you try changing her starting point? Do you think she understands when you’re jackpotting for nice runs vs. just taking the ball for leaps? Do you see a difference in her response? Would she pull good enough into a tunnel that you could run her into the tunnel and reward after, so that you could really only reward running? Or would she run to a static toy, so that she has a low, clear goal in front of her? Did you notice anything in slow motion, like a bouncy board or her slipping or… -- anything unusual happening before the leaping started?
First time she missed I was running with her. Then I noticed if I sent her to a tunnel and she got up lots of speed she would miss. I wonder if it has something to do with competing with me or my other dogs. I notice recently she has been competing w/ my Border Collies when they are released out of the house. If she is the last one she leaps off the last few steps of the deck staircase. If she and I are walking down the steps together she never leaps. When I added the tunnel she started to leap. The stationery toy is usually a good way to get her to do good contacts but not if she has begun leaping. Maybe I have to make sure she does not compete with big dogs and people for a while.
Let’s see how the next session goes. If it turns out it’s really your movement that makes her leap, you can do some static sessions to get the running back, but then slowly start adding your movement (first walking, then jogging etc.) as she needs to get used to that.
Here is the next session. Board is solid. No bouncing. No slipping. I have not been consistent about clicking good hits as I have been working so hard on just getting her on the board. I am sure you are right that she does not know yet what is a good hit. I have been praising any hit. She gets her ball whether she hits or not and that is what she is interested in. So at the moment she is in the dark about this game. See what you think of this video and I will keep at it. Many thanks, Elise
If you think she is only concerned about getting the ball and doesn’t care if you click&praise&jackpot her for the best ones, then you definitely want to get rid of a toy fast -- this will be a topic of your next lesson, but the reason I asked if she pulls well into tunnels is that if yes, you could use a tunnel instead of a toy to focus her forward and then only throw a toy after the tunnel for the good ones and just call her back and try again for the leaps. It’s definitely very important she understands when you’re jackpotting and when not to eventually understand what you want.
I have been trying but with little success. Here is a sampling. I would go back to a flat carpet but she does the same leaping with that. I have not tried a MM yet. If she is going slowly she goes through the contact zone. If she is going fast she leaps. She is leaping more frequently now than when we started. I will not give up on this. She is a little dog and this should be possible. I just am not getting the behavior I want across to her.
Tried something different. What do you think?
Of course it’s possible, even with big dogs! It’s just that with some dogs, you meet problems sooner, with some later and with some never -- but it’s hard to predict and has no connection with the size. Not sure what your new set up is about, but looks to me like narrower board at the end makes her change her striding and I think this will end with leaping… But she seems to run really nicely on a carpet, so I would do some more of that, challenge her with things that you think might be hard for her (you running etc.), then put it under flat plank and then raise it VERY gradually again.
I had nothing else to do tonight, so I made a movie that shows his experimenting. I don’t show some of the leaps, they all look about the same. What I do try to show are some of his strange one hind foot striding. He does it on the down ramp a couple times and in the contact. He lands one hind, but holds up the other through to the next stride. I have noticed this trend before. It varies what hind, too. I think he starts to think about adjusting and this is the result? If he would just run normally I think a lot of the leaps would disappear, but maybe he needs those adjustmenst on the higher part of the down ramp. Anyway, I’ll keep working like this as it is getting better. Last week I had more leaps in a row. This week it was more leap, then hit or several hits, then leap. So, it is improving, slowly and I think he just needs to work this out and be reminded of his job.
Funny. I saw this one hind leg down before only with Pamela&Cooper, on the last video she posted. It looked to me like Cooper was doing that because the plank was bouncy. No idea why Spur came up with that… But as long as the trend is good, I wouldn’t worry. I loved the hit at 1:28.