Great job so far everybody! But again, please see as many videos of others as possible and read my comments to others too - the more you read and the more videos you watch, the easier it will be to understand what you're going for and see it in real speed too.
Anyway, here is your new list:
1. gradually make that plank/set-up higher&higher, still jackpotting the best hits, but make a criteria for a jackpot somewhat more strict and at this point also stop clicking misses and almost-misses, even if the dog is striding equally. Jackpot really good hits only. It's no problem if the dog still gets the toy on every try, just take it immediately when he comes back. When it's good, praise and tug and when it's especially good, be especially excited and play especially enthusiastically 🙂 And yes, dogs are smart enough to know the difference.
2. as the dog is probably already searching for the plank better, slowly start throwing sooner&sooner. Don't rush it, but you eventually want to throw that soon that the dog is technically running to a static toy. But again, you don't want to get there sooner as in 3 weeks as it's only then that we'll start using a static toy - you do want to throw it for those 3 weeks more! It's better to throw somewhat longer if necessary - usually not an issue with BCs, but with my PyrShep puppy, I needed to throw VERY long to keep the speed and forward focus - if any of that gets weaker when you start throwing sooner, go back to whatever gives you back the speed and forward focus, we can deal with the rest later!
3. as you are still throwing a toy, your movement and position probably won't affect the dog's performance - but just to be sure, do try to run with the dog here and there, just to check if that's correct. If it does affect your dog's performance, add movement gradually, by first walking slowly along, then walking faster, running slowly etc. You don't need to do it on every try, especially not if it doesn't affect the performance, but do try it here and there.
4. another difficulty we can slowly start introducing now is changing starting position of your dog. If you use a low DW, you can use different approaches instead. Don't use the best spot all the time anymore, but vary it a little bit. If it makes their hits too bad, go back to the good starting position. But bad hit here and there is good, that's how they learn the difference between what gets rewarded and what doesn't.
5. new trick: shape a dog to go with all 4 feet in a box that is ideally as long as he is. Then gradually use smaller&smaller objects, your goal is the dog is standing with 4 feet in a small bowl. Good for balance and rear legs awareness! Also, teach backing up with you standing still, by throwing a reward for them first for one step back, then two and then add more&more distance. Great for rear legs awareness and coordination!
hi Silvia, here comes un update from our last session. I was digging hole in the ground to eliminate the edge. I also raised it a little. That made her jump up and she always landed at the first part of the dw. And that made it impossible to get a hit. So after a couple of sessions trying to fix that I gave up and changed it so she had to run up also. The first session was really good, this is the second session with a little mixed result. First 7 runs is from a tunnel and the rest from a sit. The hindleg separation is bad in the beginning but is getting better during the session.
I try to make a big difference between god and bad, but I find it hard to reward well as she is getting selfrewarded from just running. When we training other things I have no problem reward with tug or food. Looking forward to your comments.
Sure, run up is better: and setting the whole DW might be even better as mini A-frame set up promotes flying over an apex too. But yes, I think this was actually a pretty good session as you got some perfect hits (like 1:47 and 1:50) and some obvious leaps, so now the important thing is to make a big difference between the two. Of course running as such is fun for the dog (that’s why RC is so easy to maintain! 🙂 ), but I think most dogs still appreciate when you click and play too -- or you think she doesn’t care?
Well I think she likes when I praise her, but trying to tug or give her food I have to force her. She is just looking like she sais “Let me run again…”. I try to just take the ball silent when its bad and try to talk, play and feed when its good. I just got the idea that running round the field together might be a good reward..
I just use the clicker sometimes as I think Im always late in running
Oh, that’s funny… I hope you can think of something even more fun as running the plank -- running around together is a good idea to try!
Yes, back to 17″ board, I got it pretty stable this time. The first one was his best (lowest) hit. The middle few are leaps or very high and then we got one good one so I stopped there plus it was starting to rain again and I didn’t want it to get to slippery again. I’ll stay at 17″ for a while, the move up too fast really threw us off -- lesson learned there!! I’m very impatient and need to take my time. It really makes a difference too having him with a lot of running room before he hits the board. I might try to make a 24″ table this weekend or beg my husband to do it, he’s handy like that. Then I could do the plank table plank set up eventually.
Yeah, still some more work needed… However, don’t focus on hits too much, running style is actually even more important at this point. Meaning that 0:58 try was pretty good as he is running well. Last one would be very nice too if only he would put the other hind leg down too! And yes, plank table plank would be very good to have!
OOPS the to my video did not come thru so I will try again
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Here is Derek’s Standard Q from this weekend. I think his running contacts were good. I welcome all opinions. He does have a bad habit of perching on the A-frame in trials, but not in training. Any thoughts on how to fix this?
Nice run! What a nice speed at the end!!! Contacts were o.k., but I would of course like to see them even faster, with no trotting in between! I think the plank work will really help. AND once he really gets it’s about RUNNING, stopping on the A-frame will go away too. I think he is still thinking about stopping at the end.
Hi Silvia
Here is another one of Derek’s runs. His A-frame was better because I was able to run ahead of him. Let me know what you think. I am still doing the carpet with him. I will post a video soon so you can determine if he ready to move on to the plank.
Grace & I did another session last night and she did really well again. so, 1 more session bf i add some height. How much height do i start with and what increments do i increase by? Just wondering if everyone could give me some tips on what objects they use to add height (I can obviously see the tables but the having trouble seeing what the other objects are from the videos). Want to start collecting.
How long can i keep working with just 1 plank for? Wondering when i need to think about preparing another plank or do i need 2 extra planks? At what point do you need a dog walk set up?
You can start with something like 10 or 15cm -- things like bricks, wood, tables, for supporting the middle also buckets etc. all work well. How long one plank is o.k. depends on what you are getting on one plank… When you start getting one hit only, then you definitely need another one, so you better have it ready. One more plank should be enough. With La, Bu and Bi I trained everything with just one plank (but yours is too short) to all the way up before transferring to (normal height) DW as I didn’t have an access to one that can be lowered (and not every day), so everything is possible. The transition is easier when you can use a real DW before, but you can definitely work around it if necessary.
Here is Synergy with the 4 Feet In A Bowl/Box trick. I actually started to shape her in a smaller bowl so that’s why she is getting this so quickly. I decided to go back to a bigger object (cat box works perfectly:-) because she kept tipping over the smaller one.
Do you have suggestions for a smaller bowl that doesn’t easily tip over?
Thanks,
Marla
Nice! Once the object gets really small, I simply hold it with my hand as most small objects are in fact too tippy.
Ok, so this is our third session since my last post. On the first session I left the dog walk the way it was and added a jump -- bad idea -- leapy Maia was instantly back! She would leap even if I put her directly infront of the DW that session.
Session 2, I raised the set up on by one brick, no jump. Maia was still very leapy, but slightly better than the day before so I was encouraged.
Session 3, today, I kept the DW set up raised as in session 2, and I experimented with being on the other side of the DW. Maia gets VERY leapy with me on her right, so I need to work much more on this side (the reason I favour the other side is because I throw the ball better with my right hand :/ ) I think she is improving. Near the end of the session I was able to send her over a jump first without her leaping. I will work on this set up for a while and proof the ‘other’ side and then start walking beside the DW rather than standing like I do. Is that a good plan for the next few sessions?
Ania, do you think it matters what hand you throw with? I have always thrown with my right hand no matter what side I am on and I never noticed any difference for the dog, but maybe I am missing something? I don’t think I could possibly throw well at all with my left hand, LOL!!! Have you tried being on her right and throwing with your right?
Very cool she can go over the jump now without getting airy! Not sure why she has such a strong preference for one side, other than that you throw better with right hand… -- but why don’t you throw with right hand in both situations? I never even tried throwing with a left hand (that would be a disaster!) -- and they never seemed to care. and yes, sure, you can add some movement next and if that goes well, raise it some more, but still on this set up.
Thank you. I will do as you suggest.
The reason I throw with the closest arm to the DW is because if I throw with the opposite arm, the ball goes off to the side and then it pulls her off. (I’m not the world’s greatest ball thrower 🙁 )
Yes, that could be a problem on this height, I’m always on the same side at this height (but actually the other one: restraining with left hand, throwing with right hand 🙂 ) and then move on the other once the plank is high enough they don’t do it anymore.
Oh my we’re getting worse… I added an on ramp so that instead of jumping up onto the plank he would run up and run down -- oh boy I was wrong. Superman leaping. It shows that he still has no idea what I want and that the only reason he was getting such nice hits before was the perfect set up for him to get it. What I thought would help (up ramp) has made it much worse. I also did a few aframes because we’re competing this weekend and I haven’t done one in three weeks.
Well, he is actually running much better as on DW, his hind feet are again mostly separated, but yes, placement is not perfect, but it would be unrealistic to expect from him to adjust his striding at this point in training…. It takes some more repetitions than that, I’m afraid… You would actually get some pretty nice hits on that set up if only he would put both legs down! And he only does it at the contact, never the stride before! Anyway, adding a table in between would make him add a stride and as a consequence get deeper on the plank. He does need some help to get better hits to have something to jackpot so that he can start to understand. Ideal would be to have 80% of nice deep hits and 20% of leaps to have him see the difference. For an A-frame, the best would be to wait to get nice hind feet separation and running on DW and then try to get it on AF too.
I couldn’t answer any more in my thread so here’s a new one… New height for Epic today. I think he did well. He was very consistent with hind feet. Could have had much better hind leg separation though. I’ll let him sleep on it and see what he does then. I also introduced a jump before the toy and in the last session, a tunnel with a toy in it.
Great job on a new height, I think he was really good going to that jump, but the tunnel (and maybe also you in front) made him think less and gave you less hind feet separation, one overreach and some air. So I would work with you in front on a jump only and for a tunnel, stay behind for now. You could also try jump-tunnel first if a tunnel still makes him too airy to add challenges gradually.
Tried the same height, but a new dogwalk and new location. He started very consistent, with high hind legs (one foot on the contact). If we agree that we want front legs hitting the up contact and hind legs hitting the down contact, I guess he has to lengthen that stride a bit? Or will it be completely different on full height anyway? If I threw a ball when he was on the dogwalk, he would shorten his stride a bit and fit in front legs on the contact. And if he hit the up contact with hind feet he got great, low, hind leg hits. Most really good hits (19.7., 19.8., 20.1.) was a result of hind legs on the up contact.
So I’m a bit confused on what to do next… Maybe I should just go to the next height, as the striding might be different there.
I think his final striding will be front feet on up contact and then 4 fully extended strides so that he starts the last stride with hind feet just bellow the apex and then hits the contact with hind feet (as in 18.9). I think that’s mostly what you’re getting on your DW now, but he is somewhat higher on this DW -- looks like he is trying for 3 strides here? Could be because Smart planks are shorter as most other DWs (3.8m) -- what length are yours? I think he is deeper on this DW when he starts with hind feet as he doesn’t go for 3 strides then. It’s definitely good he knows different stridings, Bi does it in 3 (almost always on Smart DW), 4 (mostly) or 5 (rarely -- on bad approaches only) strides, but I never saw her hit up contact with hind feet, she does the adjustments on a DW as such (putting one front leg down to extend the stride when necessary). But yes, you will get the final striding only on full height, so you can definitely focus on adding height now, you have enough understanding and good style now. Just don’t go into overreach trap again: he gets overreachy at the end of the video as he has difficulties meeting the criteria, so he resorts to it again. When things are difficult (new DW, new height, hard approach etc.) I will for a session or two reward high one-leg hits too -- by try to get them deeper by jackpotting the deepest ones. But I think high hind leg hit is still better as overreach…
Tried the same again today. Three sessions on the same dogwalk. It is obvious that what happens on the up-contact defines the end behavior. When he hits the up-contact with low front feet, he gets high hind legs on the other end. Once or twice in the end he was able to extend more and go a little deeper. I don’t think it’s realistic for him to add another stride (or maybe on a much higher dogwalk?), but maybe half a stride and go with front feet on the down contact. Or I could encourage hind legs on up contact and get nice hits on both sides.
How much does height affect striding? Should I just go higher or lower and hope for a change?
First minute is just two sessions of bad repetitions which I choose to not show in slow motion. They are pretty much all the same (high hind legs). The interesting video starts at about 1:15. I think he is really trying to do right. He is sometimes adjusting his stride before the dogwalk (which causes worse up-contacts, but great down) and sometimes really extending on the dogwalk to get deeper in the contact.
O.k., only saw this after replying to the first video already, but yes, I still think the same: 3 strides are barely enough if he hits the up contact well, that’s why 3.5 strides (hind feet hit DW first) look better, but obviously, he is trying to extend more and is hitting better even with 3 strides now. He will need to learn to do adjustments on a DW (not before), so I would keep challenging him with different lengths of DWs, while always trying to get front feet in a contact. But yes, as striding can change with height, you can try getting to full height first and then do a tour of DWs, challenging him with different lengths. Different approaches are good practise for him too.
Hi Silvia!
We did three sessions with a full dw, flat on the ground a couple of days ago. I got help with clicking and watching for overreaches, but I´m not alone having a hard time seeing wich paws hit the contact…
Today I trained with Fanny (and Epic) She came up with the brilliant idea to put coloured baby-socks 🙂 on Ninjas hindlegs to make it easier to see. Fanny had a higher dw, put we tried it anyway.
I don´t know if the socks made Ninja more aware of his hindlegs, put the session went very well -- and I could reward only hindleghits!
Ninja looks good in his socks! The last hit was perfect! Could be the socks help yes and might be this new height is better for him too as he is not so tempted to go for 3 strides. So I would keep both 🙂 and keep jackpotting for nice hind legs hits. I would still reward for nice in the middle front feet hits too (as 3:5 for example -- it was a nice hit and no overreach) as you actually do want him to know different ways and stridings to meet the criteria, so it’s not all bad about front feet at all. But do keep jackpots for hind feet only.
Hi Cecilia, Great idea! It made me think about using vet wrap. It stretches and wouldn’t cover the bottom of the paws. It also comes in some bright colors. Maureen
Hi again!
This week started really nice. We tried a new dw and got almost only good reps: 11 hits in 13 runs, 8 of them were hindleg-hits and 4 of them were low! And best of all I didn´t reward any overreaches 🙂
(in 1:4 I think Ninja is looking into the woods for some wildlife…)
The next day we went back to the same dw but the result was not as good: 7 hits in 12 runs. But there were only 4 hindleg-hits and only 1 of them low. Anyway, I didn´t reward the overreaches.
Later that night we went back again and I got even less hindleg-hits: only 4 hindleg-hits and none of them were low. And I accidently rewarded a couple of overreaches 🙁
Today we did 14 reps and got 10 hits but only 4 hindleg-hits and none of them were low, but I don´t have todays session on film.
I´ve got a lot of hindleg-hits or jumps over the upcontact lately… Should I worry about that? I try to use a strideregulator, but it doesn´t work so good anymore. Before (on lower dw) he almost allways hit the upcontact with his frontlegs.
I´m a bit afraid to reward frontleg-hits on the downcontact, since I want less of those and more hindleg-hits… I´m still not sure if I really make Ninja notice the difference between jackpots and rewards.
Yeah, I think the problem on this DW as it’s from Smart and shorter as most other DWs is that he is between 3 and 4 strides… He can only do it nicely in three if he hits the up ramp so high he misses the up contact or if he starts it with hind legs (so front feet hit even higher for the first time). And if he wants to fit 4 strides in, he gets overreachy… Still, I would reward tries like 3:1 of the first video as he really made an effort that after being too high with 3 strides, he throws one front leg down right in the middle of the contact. He will need to learn even more adjustments on DW as such to always be able to meet the criteria as different situations require different stridings. But it’s normal he needs time for that. I just hope he is not trying to do adjustments before DW now and that’s why he is missing up contact or hitting it with hind feet first… He needs to hit it with front feet and then do adjustments on a DW… -- I will try to make a video of Bi’s adjustments on DW (but after WC, no time now) as she has even longer stride as Ninja to show exactly what you’re looking for, but you want extending the strides on a DW as necessary (by flying longer or by putting one front foot down somewhere), while starting the DW always with front feet in a contact. For Bi, I put a stride regulator (empty plastic bottle actually) about 40cm before up contact. I didn’t do it for a long time now and she hasn’t been missing any lately, but could be it’s just luck… But that will definitely prevent hind feet hits and should make him take off early enough to hit up contact with front feet (you can move it some if necessary). I do think it’s important to address it now as you don’t want him to learn that he hits the down contact the easiest by starting the up ramp very high…
Hi again Silvia!
Tonight I tried putting the strideregulator 40 cm before the upcontact. It worked quite good at first.
(1:1) frontleg on upcontact and (high) hindleg on downcontact. Jackpot! 😀
But the next rep (1:2) he put his hindlegs on upcontact and (very high) hindlegs on downcontact.
(1:3) I moved the stridersgulator 10 cm further away but then he jumped the upcontact (or very low hindleg?), tried to make the dw in 3 strides and hit the downcontact with one low frontleg…
(1:4) I moved the strideregulator 10 more cm and got frontlegs on upcontact and a very low hindleg (almost overreach?) on downcontact. Jackpot!
(1:5) Hindleg again on upcontact and a big stride over the downcontact…
(1:6) I moved the strideregulator to about 1 meter before the dw and got a big stride over upcontact and high frontleg on downcontact.
In the second session I kept the strideregulator at 40 cm before dw for all the five reps and got different hits or no hit on the upcontact…
In (2:2) I think he lost his balance a bit.
I´m a bit confused because there is no consistency in Ninjas way of running? Even if I reward one thing he seems to try something different the next time..?
Do you think that I should do some only up-contact-training separately?
At least I got 5 hindleghits (2 low) of 11 runs tonight -- that is some improvement!?
To me, it actually doesn’t really look as if he is trying different things: to me it looks like he is just running, knowing that’s what you want, but not really understanding the importance of taking the last stride from the very end just yet -- or at least not really knowing how to get there… He needs more experience for that and as many good hits as possible. You definitely got some nice ones this time, so that’s good. But yes, as we can’t fix the up contact with a stride regulator, you might want to spend some time on up contacts first… You could use your short plank for that and train it at home, using a hill if possible as training it on flat can be very confusing if you used to train him to touch the end of it with hind legs and now use it for him to touch it with front feet at the beginning… Another way would be to put several poles/bottles in those first 40cm before up contact as that will prevent front feet in that area and therefore prevent hind feet on the contact, so it should give you more front feet hits…
Ok, that´s what I thought too (he only knows that he´s supposed to run). Is that normal at this stage..? Shall I go back to lower hight or use just a plank until he understands the criteria or shall I just keep letting him run at this dw?
I will use a hill and a plank to train the upcontacts! And I´ll try to use several strideregulators as you wrote, when I go back to the dw.
Yes, it’s pretty normal. At first, I help with a set up to get many jackpottable hits, but in his case, I’m not sure how to help him… If you work on just a plank, he will be mostly likely starting it with front feet and then will have to shorten a stride to hit the contact with front feet and that will give you even more overreaching, so I think we need at least two planks -- and the height doesn’t hurt either (I would suggest going down if he were leaping) -- so I think DW is actually perfectly o.k., all we would need is a way to help him succeed… Did you ever try starting him on horizontal plank -- trying different points to see which would give you the most jackpottable hits? The good thing would be that that way, you could always make him succeed by starting him at his good spot + could gradually move him away, making him do the necessary adjustments ON a DW as such, not before.
That sounds like a good idea, I will try that tomorrow! And do some upcontacts separately. Thank you 🙂
Yeap, that should make it easier for him, to only focus on one thing at the time.