Great job so far everybody! But again, please see as many videos of others as possible and read my comments to others too - the more you read and the more videos you watch, the easier it will be to understand what you're going for and see it in real speed too.
Anyway, here is your new list:
1. gradually make that plank/set-up higher&higher, still jackpotting the best hits, but make a criteria for a jackpot somewhat more strict and at this point also stop clicking misses and almost-misses, even if the dog is striding equally. Jackpot really good hits only. It's no problem if the dog still gets the toy on every try, just take it immediately when he comes back. When it's good, praise and tug and when it's especially good, be especially excited and play especially enthusiastically 🙂 And yes, dogs are smart enough to know the difference.
2. as the dog is probably already searching for the plank better, slowly start throwing sooner&sooner. Don't rush it, but you eventually want to throw that soon that the dog is technically running to a static toy. But again, you don't want to get there sooner as in 3 weeks as it's only then that we'll start using a static toy - you do want to throw it for those 3 weeks more! It's better to throw somewhat longer if necessary - usually not an issue with BCs, but with my PyrShep puppy, I needed to throw VERY long to keep the speed and forward focus - if any of that gets weaker when you start throwing sooner, go back to whatever gives you back the speed and forward focus, we can deal with the rest later!
3. as you are still throwing a toy, your movement and position probably won't affect the dog's performance - but just to be sure, do try to run with the dog here and there, just to check if that's correct. If it does affect your dog's performance, add movement gradually, by first walking slowly along, then walking faster, running slowly etc. You don't need to do it on every try, especially not if it doesn't affect the performance, but do try it here and there.
4. another difficulty we can slowly start introducing now is changing starting position of your dog. If you use a low DW, you can use different approaches instead. Don't use the best spot all the time anymore, but vary it a little bit. If it makes their hits too bad, go back to the good starting position. But bad hit here and there is good, that's how they learn the difference between what gets rewarded and what doesn't.
5. new trick: shape a dog to go with all 4 feet in a box that is ideally as long as he is. Then gradually use smaller&smaller objects, your goal is the dog is standing with 4 feet in a small bowl. Good for balance and rear legs awareness! Also, teach backing up with you standing still, by throwing a reward for them first for one step back, then two and then add more&more distance. Great for rear legs awareness and coordination!
Lesson 2 with Lira. Moving the plank up slowing. Running around a cone in different postions to get speed. When I hang back she’s hitting it but moving forward we had a few leap offs. If I’m ahead of her at the end of the contact she’s not leaping off as much.
Trying to click and throw but seems like I’m always clicking to late or clicking fly offs because she’s too fast.
Should I add the up contact to the table next of go to a low dog walk?
Try to add your movement more gradually, to not get too many leaps. You can also try earlier throws (throw as soon as you see she will be jumping on a table), as your movement will distract her less that way. I would first add the up ramp to the table and then go to low DW.
It worked! No misses tonight. throwing the ball right before she hits the table with me moving up slowly. 🙂
Silvia,
What do you usually suggest doing when a dog doesn’t extend its last stride on the dogwalk.
Example:
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Is there another answer other then going back down to a lower height ? Ive done that several times and it never seem to help in the end. I’m confident that she understands not to “leap” but she just doesnt extend her 2nd stride that much.
Thanks,
Tara
Usually I first suggest a toy thrown in advance or two tunnels -- and if that still doesn’t give deep enough hits, going lower and working on importance of getting all the way down some more, challenging them some more with different starting points (positioning the dog at different points of the DW and sending him on from different angles) and exits to really challenge their understanding, asking for nice deep hits all the time. Once you have it, the dog will be able to do necessary adjustments also on more height -- I never found height to be a real issue and I think that’s true for your dog too: it’s not about the height, it’s about understanding. She might understand not to leap, but she doesn’t seem to understand the importance of getting all the way down -- this 2nd lesson is all about that understanding, I’m not sure if you spend enough time on that?
Congratulations on your National Championship and runner-up!!!
My dogs and I are having lots of fun training the RC. They both are so excited when they see that we are starting our RC training. Lots of barking and running across the planks on their own before we actually get started.
I moved the planks to a slight incline in my yard and I did not notice any changes in stride. In fact over the last few days we have lots of hits and very few no hits. Slowly it would seem that Eli and Liberty are understanding what I want and I am doing better most of the time rewarding the right things. I have two videos below of our evening training session. Not sure if I rewarded correctly or not but what I put in the videos is how I rewarded. Am I rewarding correctly? I am still not 100% sure what should be a jackpot and what should be just a reward. Do you think we are ready to move the plank higher or should I continue at this height?
Thanks,
Melanie, Eli, and Liberty
What to jackpot? Tries like Liberty’s first one. 🙂 That one was perfect. In the others, hind feet separation is not as good and the one you wrote is leapy is actually too leapy too reward. Eli is running nicely, but definitely select towards deeper hits (as you’re doing now) and try different starting points to see if there is one that would give you deeper hits. And yes, you can try raising the plank some, but keep working towards better hind feet separation with Liberty (and less air as a consequence) and deeper hits with Eli.
Thanks for your feedback. Will do our best to make adjustments. I have one other question. Should we continue running two planks side by side or now move to one plank.
Thanks,
Melanie, Eli and Liberty
Hi Silvia,
We did another mixed session (Plank and low dw). I was not able to put the two dws together as they leave air between. But I fixed it better. What do you think?
I’m just very worried for the toes on that edge… Why don’t you stay with the plank you have and raise that one? Why do you think DW plank is better in any way? If you absolutely want to use DW plank, raise it some more to soften that edge and maybe try to fill it with some sand or cloth. And yes, her hits are perfect, but I needed to watch it three times, I was too worried for her toes first two times.
Thank you for your advice. The problem is that the plank is so thin that I can not rais that one. I have now been making a hole in the ground and filled up so it will not be an edge. Hopefully it will work 🙂
O.k., then raise this one and use that hole to bury the edge, that should work.
Hi, Silvia!
Congraulations to your victory in the Nationals!!
I´m still experimenting to find the best way to make Ninja want to run fast, without leaping over the contact.
Ninja isn´t very easy to reward, so I have to be very enthusiastic every time I reward him. That makes it a bit hard to jackpot the low hindleghits…
I find it extremly hard to determine what to reward and what not to reward when we practice. Frontleghits and even overreaches often looks much better than hindleghits in high speed. Hindleghits often looks a bit like leaps.
I end up rewarding almost everything and I wonder if Ninja have any idea why he gets rewarded…
Yesterdays session where 25 repetitions. 9 where hindleghits which I rewarded. 6 where frontleghits (3 of them where high and almost overreach) which I rewarded. 9 where leaps, I accidently rewarded 2 of them. 1 was the accidental tight turn that I rewarded. Summary: 25 reps, 12 good hits, 18 rewards. Do you think I make to may mistakes..?
*Do you think I make to many mistakes..?
Well, it’s definitely better the less mistakes we do -- but I guess we all do them and they still learn. I agree with what you wrote and I think that’s the most common mistake: not rewarding hind hits enough as it might look somewhat leapy, while often jackpotting overreach as it really looks very un-leapy 🙂 To make it easier, try to just focus on a contact area and jackpot everything with two separated feet in and don’t reward one very high foot. Because yes, all those one high front foot hits were overreach -- without it, you would get one hind foot in. Tape the sessions and review it later to check the overreach tendencies and if the trend is good or not, but when training, just look at the contact area and count the legs in 🙂
Also, does he like tunnels? If yes, you could use two curved tunnels to send him for rewarding everything that is o.k., but not jackpottable, click and reward for jackpots and stop and redo for leaps. Maybe that way, he could see the difference between no reward, reward and jackpot better? I did that with Bu as she is also that way: you need to reward very enthusiastically if you want her to take it as a reward 🙂 -- so it makes it really hard to make a distinction between a reward and jackpot.
I´ll try the tunnels, but that way he has to run without me throwing a ball in advance or put a toy out after the dw?
If you use tunnels, then you don’t use a toy no as the tunnels are there for pulling them forward -- so it only works if the dog loves them and drives well into them. You only use a toy for jackpotting the best ones and otherwise just run back and fourth.
Hi again Silvia!
Today I went to the training-facility and set the low dw and two tunnels up. I walked Ninja to make him warm. And then a man came and told me that I couldn´t train because there was some mental-test for dogs going on. Both Ninja and me were so disapointed 🙁
So I got back in my car and drove home again. Still wanting to practice. At home I took out my old plank and a box that I used when I tought my little poodle running contacts some years ago. The plank is only 2,30 m long -- way too short for a border collie. But I really wanted to do something… So I thought that if I could make Ninja put his feet in the right position on the short plank I could still get some good hits to reward. I used a strideregulator (a speedbump).
In the first session I moved the bump until I got a perfect(?) hit. Then I kept it in the same spot for two more sessions.
Do you think Ninja learned something from this or did I manipulate too much, so that he didn´t have to think for himself?
I tried to be extra enthusiastic and let him have his squeakerball and sometimes extra good food for the jackpots. and there were lots of jackpots! 🙂
PS. The pink part of this plank is about 0,5 m.
That sure was lots of manipulating, but the good thing is that you got plenty of rear feet hits to reward and maybe that will give him the idea that rear feet are o.k. too. If he gets that part, real DW will definitely be much easier for him. So yes, I think that when you can’t get to a real DW, you can still do some work on this plank.
Hi Silvia!
I´ve tried to use two tunnels, but it didn´t work… He didn´t pull towards them but kept looking at me for the ball instead.
So I´ve been using a ball throwed in advance or a laid out toy after the dw.
Ninja has started to make really big leaps off the dw. When I don´t reward those, I get overreaching instead and I keep accidentely rewarding them (because it looks so good when he does them) 🙁
It´s extra hard to see wich or how many paws are on the contact while I´m running myself. Right now it seems like the more we practise the worse it gets… What shall I do???
Here´s two disaster-sessions from this morning (R=reward, J=jackpot)
Help!!!
Hm… The first try was great, but then yeah, he either goes for 4 strides and overreaches or goes for 3 strides and leaps… One thing that would help would be a stride regulator at the beginning to make him hit the up ramp lower (I think he is often missing the up contact) to get less 3-strides tries. Another thing that would give us less 3-stride tries would probably be more height, BUT we would need a normal running back first… Not sure how to get rid of the overreach any other way as trying and making sure to not reward it though… Did you try focusing on and watching hind feet only and maybe for now, click hind feet only? You don’t get enough of those on this set up though so maybe, you could actually do a quick retour back to step 1 and run him on a carpet -- the good thing is that you could do that at home. Once he runs well on carpet, I would try flat DW and if that goes well, go directly to somewhat more height as you are currently at. Because yes, the trend is not good, we need to break it.
Thanks for your answer!
The strideregulator -- I forgot to use it yesterday…
I tried to focus on the contact and only reward hindleghits (and very low frontleghits), but when I watched the film I saw that all the hindleghits I thought I saw where overreaches 🙁
Do you think it will be possible to leave him in a sit before the dw, so that I can place myself where I can see the contact clearly before I let him run? I´ve been worried about his speed, but low speed doesn´t seem to be the issue? I think I might be able to see better if I´m standing still.
Actually, I´ve never used a carpet. We started with a plank… But I will try the carpet! Shall I click all the tries where his hindleg is separated and the last that hits the carpet, even if they are above the contactarea of the carpet?
Sure, you can definitely start from a stay to be able to see it better. Seeing things right is definitely the most important thing right now. It’s no problem to start with a plank if the dog has no problems staying on, but maybe at this point, a carpet is a good idea as it might look different enough to give you a better variety of hits and you might finally get the desired hits. Mark the contact area and first click split hind feet even if he is somewhat above, but then select for hits in the contact.
Lux has been injured, and I haven’t been able to work her for the past week. This is the last video I posted
Now she is ready to be worked again. You said I should continue working on a low dogwork, rewarding just running and jack-potting hindleg hits. My problem is that I have a very hard time working regularly on a low dogwalk. So is there anyway I can set up a plank and work on the same thing? Maybe in a hill or something?
You can definitely try. The problem is that on a plank alone, it’s very hard to get hind feet hits with BCs as the dogs prefer to hit the plank with front feet first and that means that with BC length of a stride, you will get front feet on a plank again in contact area and then hind feet on the floor. They actually often even need to shorten that stride on a plank some to still fit front feet in and this shortening can produce overreach… If you could get two planks and create 2/3 of DW, that would be much better. Another trick to get hind feet would be to use 0.5m longer plank, that would give you hind feet hits on just a plank…
Hi Silvia
Congrats on your achievements.
We are not ready for lesson 2; however when we start to incline the plank, do you place the incline on the approach, middle or the exit? Or is it to assimilate a dog walk with 3 lengths 12′ each and incline placed where each plank joins the next?
You can start with one plank, with an object underneath on the approach side. See some videos to get a better picture!
Hi Silvia,
today we had a other clicker sessie !! the 4 feet in a box is great !!! Benji likes it !.. but i do some more sessies in carpet because i’m not so far for the plank. Benji runs with a lot of speed and he likes but when i run with him he does the end of the carpet good. but when i trow his foodtoy he missed the end a lot, i trow when he come on the carpet so i stand stil and can see the end. so maby we are not so fast but i like to do it good so i can see also the video’s en read your comments… are you agree with it ?? or can i do the planks ( and a little bit higher ) and click only the good ones ?
this is my video of my clicker sessie today !!
ps.. the planks are good now 😉 thanks to Jonina for her advice 😉
Wow, that sure is a great 4in!!! I’m not sure if I understand your question, but if the carpet work is o.k. when you run, you can try a plak (flat first) yes and still run with him, but try to slowly introduce being behind and running to a toy too.
thank you !!! i learned Benji a new trick.. i called ”piddle” he knows that i click for his hindfeet !.. oke i’ll start with the plank 🙂 i make a video soon as posible
i told that i had a new trick called piddle.
her is the first movie!
it is also clicking for his hindfeeds 😉
Cool, I call that a peeing trick 🙂 Try it with the other leg too!
Hi Sylvia,
Here is Beatrice back again. We have started our A-frame. This is our first session. Do you have any suggestions about what we did and ideas about how we should proceed?
Since I last posted we have been to 3 foreign dog walks and each time she was tentative (trotted) the first repetition and then speeded up and performed well. I think we just need to continue our tour of dog walks. Is that correct?
At home we have some sessions with 100% good hits and then some really bad sessions with only about 40% good hits. I am thinking that I need to just continue with practicing my straight and slightly curved exits untill I am closer to 100% all the time before I start doing my sharp turning training. Is that correct?
Thanks, yet again.
Heidi
On A-frame, she is still trying to find her striding, so I would just keep running her back and fourth and reward the best ones, maybe on one height lower as the last one in the video as it gave you better hits. It sure surprised me how tentative she was on an A-frame and I can imagine she is not too sure about new DWs either. And it’s just the first try and then it’s good? And if you come again to the same place, the first try is still not good? But she is o.k. if you move your DW to another place for example? But yes, more experience on different DWs is the key. I would also keep working on your DW, trying to get her deeper to have more room for somewhat different striding, so yes, I would for now mostly work on her favourite set up to get even more reliable and preferable deeper hits. Apart from that, you can start with turns on a plank, it shouldn’t affect her straight RC as long as you only do it on a plank, in a separate session, just to teach the concept. It sometimes even helps them with their understanding of the need to go all the way down.
Hi Silvia,
Yes, it has only been the first run over a foreign dog walk that has been trotting. Typically then the next time it is running, but 5 strides rather than her usual 4, after that she is speedy and putting in 4 strides and mostly good hits. I have not been back to any of the places yet, so I don’t know how she will be the next time around. Her favorite set up is two tunnels, and none of the places I went had that set up, I was just scooting in between classes and didn’t want to disrupt their set up. I will try to give her a better shot at it by being more careful with giving her those two tunnels the next time I take her out. She does well when I rearrange her home dog walk with in our barn, never worries or slows down for that.
OK, at home also I will go back to her best set up and work on getting those deeper hits. And I will set up a board to start teaching the tight turns. With the A-Frame I will lower the height slightly and run her back and forth, rewarding the best hits. It did not seem like she ever had good leg seperation on this A-frame introduction, so I will look for that, too.
Thanks, I’ll be back in a week or two to report and post. Who knows, I might even post on the foundation class again someday.
Heidi
Sure, any experience on a new DW is welcome, so it’s o.k. to use whatever set up when you’re on a new place! Would a toy throw in advance help? It’s great she gets used to the new DW so quickly, I’m sure it won’t be a problem much longer. With my puppy, I needed a whole session to get some nice hits on new DWs at first -- by now, she is usually too high the first try, in with half of a paw on a second and the rest is o.k. then -- so definitely improving, but we’ll need some time too. It really depends on a dog, I never had this with Bi or La, but Bu was the same or even worse as Le on new DWs at first.
At home, definitely use the two tunnels to get deeper hits -- might help with an A-frame too. They often start off with hind feet together as they’re not quite sure what that obstacle is about, but they normally start to run normally on their own then, with split hind feet. On your DW tour, you might want to to some A-frames too -- it’s usually not a problem but as Breatrice seem a little worried about new equipment, it might be a good idea. And yes, it has been a while we saw Beatrice in Foundation class!
Here is a sample of the last couple of days training. I have been doing 10-15 reps per day. She is sometimes much to bouncy (airy), sometimes misses the board completely, sometimes gets the contact with front feet but hind feet are off the board, sometimes has a good two hits and gets low. I don’t think she understands her job right now. Suggestions?
Normal Speed
SloMo
Thanks,
Marla
BTW, I think the attempts at 2:34 and the very last one were her best. Is this correct? Some of the other times her front feet were in the contact but I don’t think her rear feet were. The idea is all 4 feet in, right?
Those were o.k., but my favourite one was 2:06. And no, of course we do NOT want 4 feet in! That’s why we were doing a striding study -- to see that’s NOT possible. If the dog has all 4 feet in, it means his reach forward and hind feet separation are terrible and he is leaping. See the pictures and videos I posted under lesson 1 and read my explanation on the topic. It’s important to know what we’re training for in order to train it correctly. The dog who is putting all 4 feet on the same spot is running very inefficiently, is very slow and not a good candidate for RC as he covers that little ground. See Bi’s video and a huge area she is covering -- MUCH longer from a contact!!! My favourite hits are, in that order: 2 hind feet, then 1front+1hind and then 2 front.
It’s normal she doesn’t quite understand it yet, but we should help her to succeed for now to have more things to jackpot, so that she can start to see what we want. She is definitely too leapy in this video, so it was not a good idea to go to a higher object again. In general, I think it could be jumping on that plank makes her so leapy. Could you maybe do 2/3 of a DW and start her at the beginning of a horizontal plank, so that she doesn’t need to jump on -- that might help with less airy striding and give us the striding we had on a flat board back.
OK. I will put my DW back together then and try that. Before I do that, do you think I might start her on a table?
Thanks,
Marla
If you have low enough table, you can try that, yes.
OK. I did this one experiment with jumping onto a table first instead of right onto the board. Do you think this is any better? If not, I will build a low DW with just two planks and will start her on the horizontal board, as you suggested. If this works, I would prefer because I don’t have a whole lot of room. If not, I will make it work but probably not for a few days as I’ll need to go get some boards/bricks to build it on the ground and make it stable. And, how high should it be?
Thank you,
Marla
Definitely better, but I would prefer a lower table first. Did you throw a toy? She still seems somewhat airy and not running full out.
I should start her in the tunnel first, right? And hop onto the table? Yes, I threw a toy but probably way too early as it was pretty much stationary when she got onto the table. I’ll do some more today and see how it goes.
Thank you for your help.
-Marla
Some kind of up ramp would be even better…