Great job so far everybody! But again, please see as many videos of others as possible and read my comments to others too - the more you read and the more videos you watch, the easier it will be to understand what you're going for and see it in real speed too.
Anyway, here is your new list:
1. gradually make that plank/set-up higher&higher, still jackpotting the best hits, but make a criteria for a jackpot somewhat more strict and at this point also stop clicking misses and almost-misses, even if the dog is striding equally. Jackpot really good hits only. It's no problem if the dog still gets the toy on every try, just take it immediately when he comes back. When it's good, praise and tug and when it's especially good, be especially excited and play especially enthusiastically 🙂 And yes, dogs are smart enough to know the difference.
2. as the dog is probably already searching for the plank better, slowly start throwing sooner&sooner. Don't rush it, but you eventually want to throw that soon that the dog is technically running to a static toy. But again, you don't want to get there sooner as in 3 weeks as it's only then that we'll start using a static toy - you do want to throw it for those 3 weeks more! It's better to throw somewhat longer if necessary - usually not an issue with BCs, but with my PyrShep puppy, I needed to throw VERY long to keep the speed and forward focus - if any of that gets weaker when you start throwing sooner, go back to whatever gives you back the speed and forward focus, we can deal with the rest later!
3. as you are still throwing a toy, your movement and position probably won't affect the dog's performance - but just to be sure, do try to run with the dog here and there, just to check if that's correct. If it does affect your dog's performance, add movement gradually, by first walking slowly along, then walking faster, running slowly etc. You don't need to do it on every try, especially not if it doesn't affect the performance, but do try it here and there.
4. another difficulty we can slowly start introducing now is changing starting position of your dog. If you use a low DW, you can use different approaches instead. Don't use the best spot all the time anymore, but vary it a little bit. If it makes their hits too bad, go back to the good starting position. But bad hit here and there is good, that's how they learn the difference between what gets rewarded and what doesn't.
5. new trick: shape a dog to go with all 4 feet in a box that is ideally as long as he is. Then gradually use smaller&smaller objects, your goal is the dog is standing with 4 feet in a small bowl. Good for balance and rear legs awareness! Also, teach backing up with you standing still, by throwing a reward for them first for one step back, then two and then add more&more distance. Great for rear legs awareness and coordination!
Hi Silvia. Here is our plank work for the weekend. On Saturday both dogs made 16 runs each. They failed about 15/16, both of them by lengthening themselves. Maya missed the plank in the beginning when going around a pole, so I had to take it away. They think they have figured out what the task is -- it is not to touch the plank in the end! I have just included the best tries of Saturday in this video, no point watching lots of crap. On Sunday, I decided not to reward jumps over end of plank. Maya was left at the end, got a OK signal and ran to me. I did the same with Marta the first 8 tries, but because she didn´t get rewarded I was afraid to loose speed and motivation. So I ran with her. My thought was to throw a toy if Anna clicked, otherwise just keep on running but no reward. Should I continue like this?
Sure, you can continue like that. With leapy dogs, I usually recommend either two tunnels or two poles for wraps about 6m away from each end and just running them over the carpet/plank in both directions: keep running for leaps and click and reward for running.
Yeah, the tunnels don’t work as well as they don’t pull to the tunnels that much, especially Maya: she is just watching you. But when running after the ball, you got some really nice ones, so maybe just keep working with the ball and focus on jackpotting those?
Sorry about the bad video quality, it was dark. It feels hopeless. What should I do with Maya? Should I go back to plank with Marta?
To me, that actually looks much better. I think they move much less up in the air now, very nicely low and efficient. Interestingly, they still mostly miss the end, but maybe they always start a plank with front feet (can’t see exactly in this video) and that always takes them too high at the end of a plank? Could you shorten the plank for about 30cm to see what happens? On DW planks, she doesn’t seem completely comfortable yet. Why don’t you raise the plank first? I would first raise the plank, then add DW ramp for an up ramp and only then change the plank for DW down ramp, to make the transition easier.
Last time was Martas first run ever on something else than a plank. I decided to give her one more try. The plank was 4,80 this 6 m, but still the same problem in the end. With Maya I tried some other angles.
Do you think that missing the end can be the result of too many jackpots for leaping? They learn so fast that I am afraid of that. How should I continue from here? What is the goal before we continue to session 3?
I think we’re getting more and more hind feet hits. Some of them are quite high, but I have focused on rewarding hind feet, even when they’re a bit high (but still in the yellow). I think I’ll work on different approaches to the dogwalk in the next session, we’ve been doing the same set up for quite a while.
Great fun to see you here! I look forward to your handling class in October. 🙂
GREAT! Definitely more hind feet hits -- AND, I don’t see any overreaching anymore! That’s really good news! Looks ready for some new challenges!
I gave him some new challenges today -- different approaches to the dogwalk for the first time. I put poles at the beginning of the dogwalk to help him out. He found it hard to stay on the up-ramp, but had good contacts.
Great! I really like his hits now -- and the fact that the overeach is gone! Even 5.3 is not a real overreach and then in 5.4 and 5.5 he could overeach but instead has great hind feet hits! Very cool! Looks ready for the next height!
We’ve been working on a new height for a few sessions. I did two before the weekend and he missed quite a lot. Then I went away for four days and came back last night. Today, we had two sessions and he did well. He had some faults in the end of both sessions (when I changed side and when I ran in front). I think I’ll work on just those things in my next session, then do one session with diffrent approaches.
Sounds like a good plan! Things definitely look to go in the right direction now, great job!
I just wanted to share the training we did today on up-contacts. I think it went well and I think it’s worth putting some time into. What do you think?
Looks great, that should really work! Love those hills, so useful for RC training! Maybe I went wrong looking for flat area when searching for the land! 🙂
Same height -- new dogwalk. I was extremely happy until I saw the video and realized that everything wasn’t as perfect as I thought. And that I always should use a stride regulator for the up-contacts (and that I do need to train them a lot).
Sorry about that, here’s the correct video:
Well, I think that was pretty good! Other than that last overreach, you’ve got all hits and many really nice hind feet hits -- why didn’t you jackpot 14.2 for example, that sure was a nice one! His hind feet are somewhat close on some, like 14.4, but as it was a nice hit, I would reward tries like that anyway, just not jackpot. Up contacts might take some work yes, his hind feet technique for up contacts is too funny. For up contacts however, I would prefer front feet as with more angle, hind feet can get uncomfortable -- imagine he tries that on A-frame! -- NOT a good idea!
Hi Fanny, Epic looks great 🙂 Can you explain to me why we need to do up contacts…
Yeap, somebody from our smart FCI delegates who voted to refuse a proposition to stop judging them should really explain us WHY… But I wouldn’t count they can give any reasonable explanation… Personally, I think it’s simply unfair to long-strided dogs, but for now, that’s life: if you don’t have it, you get a fault. Not sure if they’re judged in Australia or not though…
We have some problems with Smilla’s RC. She is reteached dog, so process goes more difficult. Before 3 month brake we have very nice RC on dog-walk with additional plank(100% in, 90 of them very deep), we have to add only 20 cm to the normal DW high.
After brake we started with the same high and get about 90% jumps. So we decide to make plank lower, and it was pretty nice. So we start to run full DW with additional plank(as you wrote me in RC1 class) and there come big problems. Smilla still remember 2*2! When we start to run full DW with plank(in the middle of trap) she start to suggest options: sometimes standing 2*2 off, sometimes jumping over whole zone, sometimes running slowly waiting for my command “zona!” as she was teached before.
We decide to run only plank on the floor, to get running to click for. But, she has porridge in her head. She is jumping over contacts also on the floor.
I need your advice that to do. Start all from beginning once again? With plank work? She is totally disoriented what to do. I’m afraid, when we’ll come to real DW, she will start to jump or stand 2*2 once again. I don’t understand, how she still remember this 2*2, we are not practicing it since last year December.
Sounds like running was not strong enough before the break yet and she now converted back to stopping… So yes, I think you need to go back to zero to get running back and once you have it, you should be able to progress faster as the first time around. See my reply to Sanna, I would do the same with Smilla, using a carpet and two tunnels/jump wings and just run, jackpotting for running vs. leaping and then go from there once she is running well again.
Thanks! We’ll try 🙂
Some more questions 🙂 Must tunnels be straight or rotated(like in picture 1 or 2?) Weļl click for running, but in which moment she must be rewarded? After getting nice running on plank or after tunnel?
Smilla has very strong connection with me, very sensitive to my body language. There is why we are running not for a toy, but to food bowl. In this case(of two tunnels), who must reward her? I with play or food? Or, as usually, my helper from bowl of food?
One more question about A-frame. I afraid, she will try to do 2*2 off as well. Maybe, we can start to practice it now? Or have to wait until we’ll have full running DW? Last time we did A-frame 2*2 was lat year November, since that time we was not doing A-frame at all.
Well, we need to get the running back before we can try running A-frame… -- Not necessarily on full DW, but we definitely need running first 🙂 It’s easier to do this exercises with curved tunnels as you can run back and forth, but if she won’t be pulling well to a curved tunnel, you can also try straight tunnel. I would mark as she runs, but reward after the tunnel, either by toy or food in a bowl, but I prefer a toy and don’t understand at all why dogs with strong connection should be rewarded by food, not toy??? Doesn’t make any sense to me…
ok, I understood. About strong connection: toy is throwing by me, so she will wait for me and looking for me to find reward. Bowl with food is far from me, and food is given by me friend not by me. Of course, it is not a big difference, if I’ll reward Smilla by myself, she likes toys(ball) the same as food 🙂
We’ll make video of just running on plank between tunnels this weekend, I’ll post it here. Thank once again for comments!
Here is our this weekend video. The first one was made on Saturday, we made 4 sessions. First two was pretty nice, especially second. But two last sessions was very bad (it is not taped in this video). I think, we don’t have to do so much try, because she was already tiered, so it was our fault, she was jumping a lot
On Sunday we decide to make less sessions. There is video
When I run together with her, she looks at me and jumps over contact. When I’m pretty much toward, it is better. Last two tries I was standing on a place, sending Smilla between curved tunnels only by verbal cue(both tries was perfect).
She is very nice in with 3 long strides, if she make less or strides are not so long, she is over the contact. Have I to run together with Smilla? Or can send her running just by verbal cue?
There is normal speed video of Sunday’s second session:
I don’t understand, why my video looks a little bit strange format after slowing down in Movie Maker. My video originals are in mpg, maybe someone know better software to slow down this format videos?
Looks good. -- Other than when she looks back at you yes. For now, you can try either being well in front or being static and sending to a tunnel, then add walking while sending to a tunnel, then jogging, running etc. to get her used to look ahead also when you run. Always only reward after the tunnel/jump, so that she is not expecting the reward at the contact. But yes, it looks good, I think you can soon raise it some.
Thanks for comment! We always reward after tunnels, but she still sometimes think she’ll get reward after contact. But I hope she is smart to understand, she have to run toward to tunnel. Will tape another video this weekend
Today we had just a terrible sessions 🙁 A LOT of jumps over the plank, or(if she knew, she will be in the zone, she just run near plank, not over it). I try to stand on a place, to run with her, to bring ball toward — no results. Still a lot of jumps. Looks like she think, we waiting jumps from her, not runing, or like she don’t like plank. On last sesion we changed it to another, results was a little bit better, but speed also was lower. Tomorrow we’ll have another sessions and I need your advice what to do…
There are our first and last sesions videos(one more session beween it was prety much airy too). Thanks in advance!
Lidia and Smilla
To me, it doesn’t look that bad. You can put two planks side by side to make it less likely she leaves it to the side, but other than that, just jackpot the best ones and ignore the leaps…
after a weekend trialing (with my other dog), I did today a new session with only 1 up ramp.
(I used the same setup as previous time, since my low dogwalk standards are not finished yet.)
I expect to train the low DW by the end of this week, the latest. Till then I will continue using this setup.
When running with the dog, his contact is very good.
Besides that I used only 1 up ramp, I also used another one.
In the beginning, it looks like that Jedd is jumping. Is the reason for this the 2 wings next to the up ramp (closer then
previous time), the fact that this up ramp bounces a little bit, the fact that it is a new up ramp for the dog (with maybe
other surface?)….. Is it too bouncy?
The things I didn’t work on for homework 2 is throwing sooner. Maybe I’m already throwing soon enough, don’t know.
Also I didn’t change the starting position of Jedd. Still out of the tunnel in straight line before DW.
The tric will be for tomorrow.
Congrats with National Championship!!
Yes, he seems to need some time to get used to a single up ramp, so I would keep this set up for at least 2 or 3 more sessions (and maybe put an additional object under up plank to make sure it’s not bouncy) -- and maybe add some height meantime, then go to a single up ramp-table-single down ramp set up and only then try a low DW. You also want to move the starting tunnel some at one point and slowly start to throw even sooner maybe. But don’t change too many variables at the time, only one every other session for example.
here is our session of today.
I used the same setup as previous time. Since the accuracy of the down contact is not that great, I think it is best to stay a few sessions with this setup before adding new height or single down ramp. Is that okay?
I tried to throw faster than previous sessions.
Also I added some stabilisation under the up ramp, but sometimes Jedd is still having some difficulties.
And there were 3 tries where I rewarded the up contact verbally, I think it was 8, 9 and 10. But rewarding the up contact and not clicking for the down contact if he is not in, I think it is missing the purpose so I stopped rewarding the up contact. And I can continue focussing on the down contact.
Here is also our tricks session of today. It is the first time that I try to do the box exercise. My criteria for rewarding was not great: first it was looking, then 1 foot in, then 2 feet in. After a while I click for both front feet and for both rear feet and sometimes for 3 feet, so very unclear criteria for 1 session.
Thanks for the feedback,
Stevy & Jedd
The reason why I would like to get to a low DW soon is that on this set up, he has less room to adjust his stride and it’s actually very hard. If you had two tables to set in between, that would already make it easier for him. And you actually got pretty far with that little box, it’s much easier to start with something bigger and then go to smaller&smaller.
here is our short box session of today. Tomorrow again with the same box so he understands more what is expected from him. Then I will start with decreasing the box.
Ready for a smaller one!
Hi Silvia and classmates,
for the very first time in Jedd’s agility career he did a (low) DW. Yeahhh!!
I was very curious how he would do it.
I uploaded every try in the order that it happened, just to show you our progress.
In the beginning (1 and 2), I started with a tunnel to get speed and no side wings in the middle, but it was too new for Jedd.
3 -> 5: placement of a set of wings in the middle
6 -> 8: Since it was new to Jedd, I did it very slowly (no tunnel) so he could see, feel and experience a full DW, because it was a)without a small table in between and b)a small down ramp instead of the 60 cm wide plank. From nbr 8 he performed a full DW.
10 + 11: These were great. Speed from the tunnel and great contacts.
12: Removed the side wings to check if Jedd could perform without, but big mistake. Back to square one. 🙁
13: Added the side wings again, but confidence was gone. Stupid me for putting them a way.
19: Back to slow running without use of the tunnel for building confidence.
21: The jackpot was not correct, but I was happy that he stayed on the DW.
After all, I was very, very pleased with today’s session. Jedd did a great job.
I also found a bigger box for the tric, but didn’t had time today to practise.
Another thing you could do to get him used to it would be to start him at just the down ramp first and then slowly move him further back. Or try the static toy instead, might make it easier for him to focus on staying on. That way or another, it looks like you’re almost there already 🙂
here is our session of today on the low DW. After the excitement of yesterday, it was not so great today.
Only a very few were good, and I think 2 tries I clicked and jackpotted, but those were not safe hits.
Nbr 23 and 28, he jumps, but when I look at it, his hind feet are seperated. Is that jumps?
I tried several things to have good results…throw earlier, throw later, added a tunnel, did some slow executions in between, replaced the wings… but nothing really helped.
Is it kind of normal that there is a little fall back or do I expect too much at this stage?
Thx again for the valuable feedback!
Kregards, Stevy & Jedd
I think he just needs to get used to running on single planks before he can focus on hitting. It might be easier if you try other, table set ups first: like up ramp -- table -- down ramp or even table -- single plank first and then table -- horizontal plank -- down ramp. 23 and 28 are airy yes, definitely not something to reward!
just a quick question.
Is it okay to just use the table and down ramp, to practise the down ramp? Put dog on table and let hem take the down ramp for a session, so he learns the down ramp?
Are is it advisable to use also the up ramp?
Sure, you can do that first, then try it with an up ramp and only then go to low DW again, it will make things easier.
here is our session of today. It was 3 days ago that we had practised for the last time, so I needed some time to ‘warm-up’. 🙂
My main purpose was a good down ramp, so that Jedd doesn’t jump off.
If he was in the contact or not was today for me not that important.
1 -> 3: I started with just a table and down ramp. I know I jackpotted 1 and 2 with hind feet not separated, but with 3 I noticed this.
So I added the up ramp. Silly me, I used 2 tires as stabilisation, but it made the up ramp more bouncier then normal. From 11, I changed it to something more stable.
Like I said, my main purpose was a full down ramp.
I think I should do another session (or 2) with this last setup, what do you think?
Thanks for the feedback.
Sure, you can use this for a couple of more sessions, but try to bring two additional objects to support both ramps in the middle too and make them less bouncy.
here is our session of today. I’m still not satisfied with Jedd’s performance on the down ramp.
Again, I tried several little things to ensure a good down ramp, but still there is no real accuracy.
The first executions, I did it without a tunnel.
Then I used a tunnel, and a set of wings on the up ramp.
At the end, again without the tunnel, but some tries with a static ball instead of throwing.
18/19: Jedd leaves the down ramp if the ball passes the center line of the down ramp. If ball goes slightly to the left of the center line, he exits on the left and idem for the right.
So I tried using a static ball.
But when using, I think the speed is not that great.
At the end I was throwing again, but noticed that if I’m at the beginning of the up ramp, Jedd could leave the down ramp. If I’m more centered, at table position, he stays on. This is my perception of this session. Of course, it could all be coincidence.
Today, in or out a contact was not my main concern, a good performance of (in other words, staying on) the down ramp was. But like I said, not very satisfied with it.
Silvia, what do you suggest I should do?
-go back to wider down plank
-add wings next to down ramp
Thanks for the feedback.
Stevy and Jedd
Yeap, I would definitely use wings as that will allow you to focus on important things instead of focusing on staying on. You actually got some really nice hits when he stayed on, so that’s what you should be working towards, he will get used to single planks somewhere on a way -- meantime, use the wings.
here is today’s session. I used side wings on the down ramp.
Session was pretty good, better then yesterday.
Can you check out nbr 11, because Jedd was not really running it seems. Very strange.
Thanks and kind regards, Stevy & Jedd
Wrong link, here is the correct one.
Great!!! On 11, he seems somewhat off balance on up ramp, so his striding is not so equal, but it’s also not a real leap, I wouldn’t worry about it. Keep this set up for a couple of sessions, maybe making it somewhat higher, and if it goes well, you can try low DW again.
Hi Silvia and classmates,
here is our session of today.
Actually I wanted to stop after nbr 12 since Jedd was doing great, but then is was not so good and I jackpotted nbr 18 (although not a safe hit). Just to stop positive.
Next time I will increase the height a little bit, but first I have some construction to do for this :-).
Stevy & Jedd
Ohh forgot to mention it.
The side wings next to the down ramp were replaced by some covers, and at the end, the fell down but Jedd stayed on yeahhhh.
And in my video, when I write Fake Click, it is that I press the clicker, but don’t release it, because I shouldn’t have clicked.
That is the thing I still do wrong and is very difficult. Sometimes after a few good hits, I almost click just as a reflex…
Cool! But next time, when things go wrong, feel free to stop 🙂 It’s much better to stop when things go wrong as to do million of bad repetitions 🙂 You should read my “Busting the myths” article!
I’ve just read the article and it is very interesting, makes sense.
I will take it into account on the next session tomorrow.
And oh, I wouldn’t jackpot 1 and 6 -- one very low foot is not perfect… -- 5 is much better. 11 is perfect and 12 is great too.
here is our today’s session.
I took your article into account, but the last hit was a good one.
I started today with the low table, like he was used to.
Then changed to the higher table, but I tightened the wings again.
In the beginning, he ran past the up ramp, but after 2 slow executions, it was better.
I will proceed next time with this last setup, is that okay?
Kind regards,Stevy & Jedd
Sure, you can try some more sessions with this table and then try a low DW again. Looks like every change is pretty hard for him at first.
after 2 days of no RC, we did another session today.
In the beginning is was not that great. At the end, it started to get better.
After nbr 3 or 4, I replaced the side wings a little bit tighter.
I noticed that Jedd sometimes adjust his stride a little bit at the table, and then he misses his contact.
At the end, he just runs at his good.
Could it also be that in the beginning he is too excited for the ball?? Don’t know, just searching for an explenation of his less performance in the beginning.
Kregards,Stevy + Jedd
Maybe at this point, low DW would be worth trying again, I think the table makes him change the striding some. If you think he is too excited for first few tries, you can try to do first few with a static toy, maybe that will take some of the excitement off?
today I tried the homework with the low DW.
His down contact was not that great. Good thing was that I didn’t need the side wings next to the middle plank like the previous time.
Since it is the second time that we use this setup (first time was approx 2 weeks ago), it could be that the inexperience of Jedd can cause this.
Just a quick question: is it normal in this stage (training running contact for 1 month now and 2nd time on low DW) that he still misses several times the contact? Am I ‘pushing’ him too hard with my voice?
I jackpotted 3, although it was not a safe hit. I shouldn’t have done that.
The same for 6, I clicked but it wasn’t even in the contact. Shame on me.
8: was perfect and I only clicked, but I should have jackpotted! I don’t know why I’m making this mistakes? I think I’m too focused on when throwing, but I shouldn’t find any excuses.
10: I’m not jackpotting since Jedd was slipping and not running 100%, and his contact was pure luck.
12 -> 21: From 12 till 21, I used a static toy at the end of the DW (I tried this since I was not that satisfied with his down contact -> when the ball crosses the line of the DW, Jedd follows the ball).
With this static toy, I noticed that his speed was less and sometimes he is looking at me (nbr 20).
What do you think of this?
My own goal was to come to this stage (full low DW) by the end of September, since I will have less free time from October.
In the future, will there be some kind of possibility to put the dog under control when he misses some contacts in a row (off course when he fully understands the behaviour, but misses it)? And what will that be?
Thank you and kind regards,Stevy & Jedd
It seems like many/most of Jedds misses/leaps are more just wrong striding setup before. Since I’ve been watching the same thing with my big dog (Punk) it seems if I don’t see them hit with front feet right at the top of the down plank 12′ that he will not get in the yellow. If the first hit is lower then the top 1/3 of the board it’s just not happening.
So are we expecting them to figure out that striding earlier on? So they come onto the down ramp right? Or are we asking them to work it out so they have feet near the end of the plank no matter where they work that out? I think it must take them a while to really get this right?
Exactly. To get reliable RC, understanding is not enough. They need lots of experience to be able to prepare their striding in advance in order to be able to take the last stride from the very end, especially as in Europe, we see different lengths. I think my dogs, as soon as they get to horizontal plank, check where the apex is and then adjust so that they clear the apex as needed: for Le, that means fly the apex, to Bi it means don’t fly the apex, but try to hit with hind feet right after. If they come to down ramp wrongly, last-minute adjustments get really hard and while my experienced dogs can still solve the situation, my young one can’t. I would say that probably in a first year of competing with a fresh dog, you will miss more contacts with RC as you would with 2on2off… But in last 10 years of competing, you will miss less contacts with RC as with 2on2off 🙂 -- Because unlike 2on2off, RC is very hard to ruin 🙂 -- But it is harder to get, of course, I’m not trying to fool anybody into believing that it’s easy! It’s NOT easy for a long-strided dog who does DW in 3 or 4 steps to always take the last one from the very end!
Hi Silvia 🙂 I´m taking a break with acqua from running contacts I was getting so stress 😉 so I decided to relax for a couple of weeks 🙂 I´m planning to do a RC trainning next thursday, do you think the break was a good idea?
I will post my video 🙂
Well, I guess you will see it tomorrow 🙂 But yes, it’s always better not to train as to train under stress!
Yes, it’s very usual you get many misses with a new set up, especially at this stage that they’re not yet really knowing how to adjust their stride to hit: and on a new set up, with lack of confidence, hitting really becomes hard. He needs more time, you can also loosen a criteria some on a new set up, so it was o.k. to reward 3 and 6. And no, understanding is not enough to always get a hit: they need experience. I can always help them hit, using their favourite set up (tunnel to tunnel with Bu, starting with no speed with Bi, throwing a toy in advance with Le, doing just DW with La) -- but it’s about helping them, not putting them under control 🙂 They never miss because they’re not under control, they miss when they’re not well prepared for that particular situation they find hard. I know what those situations are for all of them: wooden DWs for Le (only used to rubberised ones, the spoiled child -- and some more other things, she is just a baby), turning to the left with Bi, going into the corner towards people&dogs with Bu and tons of excitement with La.
So if we go to a new setup and have a lot of misses & then review the video and see the dog is coming too far over the apex on the down ramp we can “help” them the next time by changing the setup to get more rewardable runs? So then maybe next time start them a bit further back trying to put that apex hit closer to the apex?
I know sometimes I seem to get stuck on a new setup where I have a couple really bad sessions with not much to reward. A couple times I have reviewed my video and seen over and over the same striding leading to the same problem. Then I changed his starting setup and that really helped him. So it’s probably worth it to help them be successful as much as possible early on (with setup if possible) without really “testing” them?
Yes, at the beginning, I help with the set up and starting point as much as possible because I want as many good hits as possible and I know it’s unrealistic to expect them to adjust their striding at this stage. Once I have plenty of good hits on one set up, I challenge them with different starting points, handler positions, more height etc. -- one at the time and immediately taking it away and making it easier if it gives me too many mistakes in a row. As confidence is such an important part of RC, I only test them with a plan to make them succeed, not to fail 🙂
no RC session today, but I have another question though.
In the beginning you advised to use a tunnel to get more speed, but to be honest, Jedd never did a tunnel before.
I was evaluating his performance and I was thinking to start from scratch to teach the tunnel with speed.
Therefore my question to you is if there is another method then the tunnel to speed him up before the DW, also other then Cik&Cap because I will wait for training this in the Octobre foundations class.
No, I use either a tunnel or cik/cap to give them a good start. It works even with dogs who don’t drive to the tunnel/wrap that well just yet: it still gives them a good start for the DW AND teaches them to drive more for the tunnel as the ball is coming soon!
today I wanted to do a short session before we take minimum 1,5 week break.
I didn’t use a tunnel, but a traffic cone to do cik & cap.
The cone was placed almost in line with the DW.
1 -> 3 (Cik -- left turn): Jedd did a great cik.
4 -> 12 (cap -- right turn): Jedd’s cap turn was wider then his cik, causing the up ramp to be missed several times.
Anyway, I needed to place the cone some further from the DW axe, because his turn was wider so at the end his upramp was better.
I will add this comment also in the October foundations class for the cap issue, since that is the correct forum for it.
Like in your previous feedback, I sometimes clicked non-hits since this set-up is still pretty new and to gain confidence for Jedd
Did you notice I faded the wings on the down part already? Actually it were 2 tiny poles and I placed the surfaces flat on the ground.
Jedd never left the down part, so I’m pretty proud!
Kregards,Stevy & Jedd
Well, at the beginning stages, I always front cross on cik/cap, meaning that I would be sending to cap when on the side that you are 1-3 and then to cik for others. That way, you would straighten up his line for DW. And yes, it’s easy to fade the wings, that’s why I was telling you to not spend your time on unimportant things and instead help him as much as you can and focus on his running instead. It was o.k. to click high hits for now yes, he is running well, but needs more experience.
here are our sessions from last time.
In the last session, I started with a static toy, but Jedd didn’t ran so fast so I started to throw again (since his performance was not great the last couple of times).
This class is on break.
Time seems to be flying by and I need to update you on what is going on with RC! This might be abit long….My last video was August 23 at 39 inch DW and since then I started working on trying to get deeper hits with Bender… I experimented with lots of things -- I took away the exit tunnel (had only tried that once), I used a straight exit jump, I threw the ball in advance, I took away the exit jump and just threw a ball -- and nothing I tried seemed to be making a difference. He was still hitting high with rear feet but not getting deeper to get any jackpots! I kept the entry tunnel as a constant.
I then started filming the whole DW and really looked at his striding pattern. Ok, I admit I am getting even more obsessed…… 🙂 I am confused on how you count but I was just looking at rear foot and front foot hits. Bender is very consistent with landing first with rear, then front, then rear on the downramp -- which I call 3 hits and 1 1/2 stride…..What I was seeing was that as the height increased from 32″ up his first rear foot hit (on the down ramp) is getting closer to the apex and the striding stays the same -- so he hits high on the yellow! I guess that makes sense as the angle gets steeper, harder to land with rear feet first? He did get some jackpots and what he was doing was starting the down ramp with one front foot only (he split his front feet over the apex) then rear, front, rear….
Then by the 3rd/4rth “experimental” session -- Bender offered a new behaviour! He kept the 1 1/2 striding but this time when he started with front feet on the down ramp, then rear, he offered up the front again (instead of bailing off) and hit nice and deep in the contact! I thought that was a big breakthrough for the “rear feet” boy! Although always worried about overreaching coming back….. But some really nice striding pattern over the whole DW.
Then circumstances kept us away from training for 10 days -- when I went back last Friday -- I changed the DW set up to get more space and only increased the height by 2 inches to 41 inches. And now all my jackpots are front foot hits! He still offers the rear foot hits but they are all high. I even put the exit tunnel back out (I still think he drives faster to a jump and looking for his toy but I think with practice that will come). This is our 3rd session at 41 inches and the first time I tried running him back and forth to get both directions….He is offering some different striding patterns, like a short stride on top ramp, but I hope that is all good.
I am very interested to know what you think is going on.
Shona and Bender
Well, I usually don’t worry how they get in -- as long as they do 🙂 With more height, the striding can change some of course. I’m still surprised that he used to do 4 full strides and be in and now he is doing 5 and is still sometimes high with 5… That first try for example (and 5, 6, 8): he is doing 5 strides and is still hardly in, his reach forward and hind feet separation are minimal: he could easily be in with his normal reach forward and hind feet separation… It could be a sign something is not quite right OR he is just thinking too much, because of a new height and all. If you think he is o.k. and not sore or something, I would just continue some more on that height and see what the trend will be. It could simply be he is changing striding and needs to figure it out, he sure seems to be trying with those front feet hits, so that’s definitely good news and if the trend is good, I wouldn’t worry.
This past week of training has not gone well and I need some advice!
I hope you can follow this 🙂
I understand your comments above that on hits #1, 5, 6, and 8 Bender is doing the rear/front/rear hit pattern but is still barely in. I see that his last rear hit is a shortened stride and is not his normal reach forward or feet separated as much. He seems fine physically in his running and other agility training. Normally with him he takes a few sessions to figure things out…..
This is what I have done since then. The next session (before reading your comments) was the same set-up -- tunnel/DW/tunnel and I got similiar results with all jackpots being front feet hits (1 1/2 stride) and rewards for the high rear foot hits (75% hits). On the next session I took away the exit tunnel and put out a straight exit jump -- hoping for more extension on the down ramp. This time a lower percentage of hits but mostly high rear foot hits and only 2 front foot jackpots.
I have reviewed all my recent video -- 32, 36, 39, and now 41 inches and Bender’s last rear foot hit is always a shorter stride. He was deeper at 32″ but only in the top third of the contact (I know much better than what we are seeing now…..). He seems to be able to fly over the apex further with the lower height and get his first hit further down the ramp but still short on the last one. So I tried lowering to 33 inches to see what happens. A good percentage of hits -- 84% but still mostly high rear foot hits. I did jackpot the ones that were in the top third to see if Bender could understand the difference. But he did not show any signs of reaching more forward on the last hit. And no front foot hits were offered at all. (frront foot hits only started at 39 and 41 inches)
Now I’m getting perplexed! I changed it up again and increased to 44 inches -- to see what would happen. I did start with wrapping to a jump wing and the exit was a straight jump. Overall about 67%, but only one hit was a jackpot -- front foot and the rest were high rear hits. He offered some one stride hits with starting with front feet and I can see now why you like them to start with rear feet first! What was interesting was that as the sesison progressed instead of starting his first rear foot hit literally on the apex he did drive further down the ramp with the first hit and hence got in. It is very frustrating that Bender offers such a nice consistent rear-front-rear striding and yet shortens that last stride.
Help! Where do I go from here? I was thinking of buying him a plane ticket to Slovenia to play with you! 🙂
a confused Shona and the ever happy Bender
Did you try throwing a toy in advance? That often gives them more extension and takes them deeper in. Not sure what else you could try, maybe lowering it even more extremely… But are you saying you are getting rear-front-rear now? Because on the last video you posted, on the tries I mentioned (1, 5, 6, 8) he is doing front-rear-front-rear -- and is still too high, that’s what is confusing to me. If he weren’t shortening his stride, he should definitely be in with this striding! I would definitely try throwing in advance again and if that doesn’t help, lower it extremely. But I hope throwing in advance will do the trick!
Yes, I have tried throwing in advance with not much success but I will try again….I still haven’t been able to find that “sweet” set-up where he is successful.
And yes I am getting rear-front-rear now again. Sorry, I guess I am getting tired and forgot that the rear foot strides in the last video were not his “normal”…..I have not seen that pattern since. I think he was collecting with the u-shaped tunnel in front of him -- reading more of a turn than extension because that was the first time he saw that. But then he also offered the nice front foot hits with that set-up!
Let me put together a video of our session at 44” and then you can better see what I mean. I will give Bender a break from the DW today!
Shona and Bender
O.k., will wait for the video. And well, if you ever give up, you can always send him here 🙂
Here is the video of our session at 44 inches that I referred to above. I sent him to a wrap around a jump wing and used a straight exit jump, 20 feet out. It is in 2 parts because of my slow internet but one working session -- I just switched sides. I really like the striding pattern and especially like that #16 and #18 he was driving more over the apex with the first rear hit -- subsequently they were abit deeper. And only #2 was jackpotted with the front feet. Sorry about the video quality -- the sun and shade makes it difficult to see the contact zone….
Thanks for your offer -- but two things about me -- I work really hard and I don’t give up easily. But nice to know you will take him 🙂
Shona and Bender
Good, that still looks better as your last video: he was really strange there, being too high with 5 strides, it didn’t look quite right… This is more typical problem: he can’t fit in 5 strides (tried once with that one front leg in), but is too high for 4… What I’m missing is him making some more adjustments to meet the criteria… I just watched some videos of Bi and was amazed on what kind of adjustments she is sometimes doing (very funny one-front-leg-down-only things to prolong the stride on the horizontal plank to be able to hit down ramp with hind feet and deep enough) -- you can see the adjustments also with Tai from Anne, if you have watched their recent videos.
With Bender, I don’t see those adjustments, maybe because so far, he had no problems getting in without adjustments and was never forced to learn… But I guess it’s time now… What I would do is to challenge him some with different start points on a DW. Of course, that will give you a completely different striding , but I think he actually needs to learn different options in order to get in in every situation. I would first try to find a good spot to start him in order to have many good deep hits to jackpot and then start challenging him by starting him on different spots of a DW, then also try the whole thing, but from a very strange, difficult angle etc. -- that will of course not give you any of the wanted 4 strides hits BUT will hopefully teach him the importance to get all the way down, that way or another. -- Because for some strange entries and exists, he will definitely need to know how to add another stride AND if he learns how important it is to get all the way down, he might try harder then to extend some more to get in with 4 strides too for straight entries and exits. You could also start playing with turns on a plank some, sometimes training for turns helps with their understanding of getting to the very end.
Before I received your comments above, I did a session (same height 44″) with Bender that I wanted to share. He tried so hard with his 4 strides. I sent him to a tunnel to start and the straight exit jump. The first 2 attempts were with throwing the toy first. I did jackpot #5,#6, #8 and #10 because he did try and get deeper. I was running with him and saying “go go go”…….
I agree he seems to be now (at the higher heights) between 4 and 5 strides. I think I have done too good a job in training him to ONLY offer 1 1/2 stride pattern with rear/front/rear hits!!! 🙂 He has been so consistent in offering this from the beginning (apart from the experiment with overreaching) and I steadily increased by only inches at a time that I thought he was doing exactly what we wanted. He was low and he did get jackpotted but he only offered the one solution. That’s why on the September 11 video I was so pleased to see him trying so hard with the front foot hits.
I have closely watched the progress of Anne and Tai and I do see how Tai changes up his striding and offers different behaviours to be low. I agree that Bender never had to make these adjustments because he was successful. Each time we started a new height I presumed he always figured out how to get in….
OK, I think I understand your plan. I will try him on different starting points on the DW and keep challenging him to get low and have opportunities to get jackpotted. I presume I keep at this height at 44″ for all these “experiments”. He certainly will not have the speed so maybe he will start offering up some different behaviours. And I do realize that his striding will be different but I see that is not the point -- just get him thinking about having value for being low…….I will also start the turns on the plank away from the DW.
Thanks again for your insights. I will keep you updated on our progress.
Shona and Bender
That certainly looks better, I’m sure he will have great 4 strides DW -- but to get there, I still think he needs to learn different stridings for different situations too. Front feet tries are a good sign, but that session was somewhat strange, I think he was not completely himself, as he was too high with 5 strides… -- very strange. And yes, you can keep this height or even go to full height to play “get that contact from any starting point” game.
Here is our training session from today. I find it very hard to see if she is having 2 or 3 steps when we are running. In slowmotion it is easy enough but it is hard to see it live 🙂
Today she got some very deep hits, as we never has had before. But we also get many jumps in the end 🙁
Some sure are great, but there are way more leaps as I would like too… Can you change some variables to help her succeed more? How are you rewarding, she is sometimes turning into you? Don’t worry about how many strides she does, review it in videos then and try to reproduce situations that give you 3 strides (harder entries I think). But I really don’t like that leaping, she could often easily do another stride but chooses to leap off and she doesn’t do many if any adjustments to get till the end… It looks more like as she is avoiding it as going there on purpose… I would go to the last height/set up/the way or rewarding she was successful with, stay there some more and challenge her with different approaches, handler positions etc. first to check her understanding, I think you’re at the moment getting too low successful rate to be productive…
I reward with throwing a ball right after the short straight tunnel, after the dogwalk. But i think i have made a mistake with turning an the throw. She is very aware of me. I think i will train some jumping foreward to a toy an get her more independent of me. And then make some dogwalk training, were i start her from the middle and send her to the toy. She sure is fastest if i send her to a static toy.
I sure hope it helps with her successful rate, I really didn’t like all that leaping…
Here is the training from today.
First stárting at the middle of the dogwalk. And then started her from a jump 180 degrees from the dogwalk.
I send her to the static toy in all tries.
Nice from the middle starting point, but again airy when doing the whole one… Maybe start her further and further more gradually? Or maybe try lower DW again if that would help…
After a hurricane and a week of rain last week, we’re finally back up and running. This is on a double plank with me behind throwing the ball. I have some jump stands next to the planks because he doesn’t always stay straight on the planks if I don’t throw the ball in the right direction… working on my throwing. He has one big leap and then the has some funny front leg action in a couple but he’s having a fabulous time 🙂
Great to see you are back! Cooper looks ready for slightly raised planks!
I don’t have much time or energy to make the videos but I am happy to report that my little sheltie (Daly) is understanding her conact zone. The key was to have a person dedicated to watching the contact zone and clicking correctly. Because my sheltie must be rewarded with food (often for bringing back the ball), I am limited in the amount of training I can do each day. After 1.5 cup of dog food, she is full for the day.
I am behind in my foundation class so I reserved a spot in the foundation october class this morning.
Question : is the content of the october puppy class exactly the same as puppy I, II and III ?
I would also like to reserve a participating spot in the special ‘advanced’ trick class which I think will start in november ?
Sounds great! Clicking correctly definitely helps 🙂 What successful rate are you getting now? And on which height are you?
And yes, October puppy class is a repeat of first three classes, I just named it differently as numbers were confusing, making people think puppy class has three levels… And yes, More Tricks start in November -- see you there!
We are doing a full dog walk at 2.5 feet high and our success rate is usually 80 to 90%.
We are beginning to add wide turns (without collection on dog walk) after the DW.
Changing starting position does not change her performance much. But changing what the handler does has a big impact, if I slow down or stop, she does too. If my back hurts and my boyfriend runs instead of me, she slows down. Probably because my boyfriend behaves in a much more relaxed way then me when handling her (and doesn’t run as fast lately).
I hope to post some videos soon,
Sounds good! It’s normal sudden stops can disturb her, you don’t really need that, just train for being in front and behind and lateral.
I forgot to say that she now runs to a Manners Minders. We had to much trouble with our bad throws. If the ball bounced off the ground or was thrown too high, she would jump (because she was following the ball with her eyes I guess ?). WHen I saw that she was doing the DW in 5 steps like your pyrshep on your video while running to a Manners Minder, I decided to simplify my life by using it.
Yes, our DWs are longer, so not many Shelties can do 5 strides (my Bu does 5 on my 4m planks DW), but it’s sure a nice striding as it’s so symmetrical. You could slowly start to fade the manners minder though, after all that time she probably pulls ahead after DW well enough that you can start rewarding her after the next jump/tunnel by throwing a toy after it, not in advance anymore.
Thanks for your last comment, I will surely apply the advice !
Sorry to complicate things but I would like the money I just put on the october puppy class (yesterday) to go to a participating spot in the november ‘more tricks’ class. This means I would still owe you some money. I don’t know which way to fix this is easiest for you ?
O.k., no problem. Just mail me when I open More Tricks and I’ll send you a money request for the difference.
We have proceeded with a new set-up today -- the mini A-frame. In order to maintain her good speed we have only used the reward where Tea is chasing a toy brought alive by a helper. Looking forward to your comments on how to proceed.
Great! Some are perfect and some of course aren’t, so what we want now is to raise the successful rate. So I would stay on this set up for some more sessions, then switch to single planks, raise them some and then go to low DW.
Hi Silvia! We have now proceeded to low DW and have one problem. Tea has a tendency trying to take the DW in 3 strides. However, her 3rd stride is over the 2nd “apex” (edge top ramp to down ramp) and then she fully leaps over the contact field. When we get her with very low front feet hit on up contact she takes the DW in four strides with excellent hind feet hit. This means that if we start her from a start line stay we manage to adjust her to the 4 stride mode, but when we release her spontaneously from the collar, we are either getting excellent hind feet hits (4 stride mode with 3rd stride ending just before 2nd apex) or leaping after only 3 strides on the DW. How should we proceed?
Time to add some height, start practising difficult approaches (that will take some of the speed off) and switch to a static toy (see next lesson) -- not all at once of course 🙂 -- just add one variable at the time. Those three things will all help to get less of 3 strides DWs. She will probably need to learn to do 3 strides DWs too, but I would give her more time and instead challenge her with those other things first.
Urk -- had an awful training session today. Tried somewhat higher DW. Result: She slowed down her speed, but a lot of leaping… We gave her a number of runs to give her time to adjust up to full speed, but we did not succeed today. I upload two awful videos; one from today on a higher DW and the other one from our session before that where we had problem with 3 strides mode. How do you suggest we continue our training?
Huh, that was quite some more height… -- more as I meant. But well, it’s probably best to go back to previous height and try to change other variables instead: difficult approaches OR a static toy (not both at the same time) and see what that gives you. Also, did you ever try starting her on the top of a down ramp? For “my” Whippet, running as such is so rewarding he doesn’t care so much about getting a toy, as long as he can run again. So for the leaps, we stop him, take him slowly to the beginning of a down ramp and redo just this part, to remind him of “no leaping” rule. Of course, his striding is completely different then, but he runs it beautifully then, so it’s a great way to get a successful try when things go wrong. AND it’s actually important that they can do it with different stridings!
Yes, it was high, had difficulties to find equipment to make it lower… Bad idea. Anyhow, we have used the method of restarting her from the top ramp when leaping and it was clear that Tea has not fully understood her job at the down contact. We are now working on back chaining. Below is video from tonight’s session (3rd back chaining session). What do you think? How would you suggest we continue?
I can see in your films that you´re training at GMBK!!? I live in Gothenburg too. If you want to, we can train together and help each other? I´ll send you a friendrequest on facebook!
Just a quick session only 4 reps at the new double plank raised about 12″. It went very well for our first time raising it. I’ll do more tomorrow at this new height. Super Cooper!
Cool! Time to select for the best hits, not rewarding hits like 2 anymore.
Please dont have music in your videos. In germany we cant see them…..