And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Silvia,
sorry to disturb again :)))
BUT I am sooo happy :)))
Today, first session on the full-height dogwalk. For the first time I lowered the criteria, so Kiwi run only for the ball then I added a jump after the DW. Also as it was the first time on full height (135cm) and a big jump from 110cm I rewarded all hits, some were jackpotted. Next time I will select better hits… But I start to have an impression it will work :)))
Thank you again to do this long distance class -- I finally fixed up my contacts and next year I will finally start to compete with her. I know that there is a lot of work in front of us (mainly in disturbing environment) but the way she is doing the DW is really fascinating for me -- she is so enthusiastic about it and she barks that she wants to go on the DW… My I-am-not-sure-so-I-slow-down dog is running full speed and she is sooo happy about it…. Thank you….
She sure looks great! Keep up the good work and try to try out as many new DWs in new environments as possible, always making it really easy for her to succeed in these situations, definitely using a ball again if that helps. In training, you can also add some obstacles before DW to train different approaches.
Hi Silvia,
I have done the board on the flat I can resend video of that. And I have done a low table and progressed that to a 16 inch table. Where would recommend me starting at again so that I can fix this??
Do you have a video of her running on a table set up too? Maybe send a couple of videos on different set ups to see how she was running there and when air appeared and then we’ll start again at the last successful set up. How may sessions have you done on a real DW?
Silvia, The I miss typed the date on the video. Should be 11/22 not 11/2. It’s an update on the Pivot, Wrap trick, and Backup tricks.
I will be working on a video of the DW & Af shortly.
Great, definitely great progress with the wraps, those are getting really beautiful now! Other tricks are going great too, but for pivoting, when still using a target, you need to move from one side of a target to another as you ask him to move from one leg to another: meaning that you shouldn’t be standing at 6, but at 9 for right leg position and at 3 for left leg position as his paws should be where your heels are, not where your toes are. That will also allow him to be completely parallel to you, instead of swinging out with rear end.
OK I’ll see if I can clean that up. Thanks for the tip.
Hi Silva
I need some help with the A-frame. At practice we did a lot of tries, and he mostly does 1 hit up and 1 hit down. I can see he often has problem with the 1.st contact, even when I start him from a stay close to the AF. I got the best hits when the AF was part of a sequence. Any suggestions
The vid was taken in the evening and is very dark -- but I hope you can see the pattern anyway.
httpv://www.youtube.com/user/giei1234?feature=mhsn#p/a/u/0/EDxusLJ5PI0
How many sessions on an A-frame have you done so far? If he does the best in sequences, try to only do them in sequences, keep going for the bad ones and jackpot for the good ones. I think that with more repetitions within a sequence (no toy), he will settle down: the excitement of getting a reward often makes them go for less strides, but if you just let it be, run it and ignore it, they soon figure out that that additional stride actually makes things easier.
This was the 1st real session with the A-frame. Earlier I’ve done what you are suggesting and clicked for good contacts and he was usually in. That’s why I got a bit worried with this session….
I’ll just keep on doing the A-frame within sequences, because I think you are right with the toy -- he is way too exited when it’s just the A-frame and the toy.
Yeap, sounds like a good plan. If you want to do some sessions on just an A-frame, rewarding with food instead of a toy would be another idea that might help him stride more naturally and less in a hurry 🙂
I finished the video of the contacts. As you suggested, I started him on the DW where he could get rewarded. Then kept moving him and rewarding for good hits. Ended up with a jump about 18 feet from DW and he did fine.
On the AF I started at about 4.5 feet for a few runs and quickly raised it to AKC height. All runs were in on the high side. So, it looks like the time off did him some good.
I got brave and entered him in two trials in January. I sure hope we have IT by then.
Looking forward to your suggestions.
Silvia, I went to class tonight and didn’t let Max on the DW but I did run him on the AF and he missed the contact twice by over 6 inches.
Definitely much better! I would stay on this height for a while though and work on even deeper hits on a DW. On an A-frame, I miss hind feet separation and reach forward, so I would go lower (even lower as you set it) and spend some time on that as it doesn’t seem to be getting better on this height. Problems on new equipment is not unusual with retrained dogs, so you’ll definitely need to train on other places too, but ideally, you would lower it and make it look as much as training as possible, throwing a toy in advance and first starting him on a good spot on a DW. That should help transferring to a new behaviour in other places too.
We’ve moved back up to an actual dogwalk, at 2ft high. These are videos from the first 3 sessions we’ve had. I’m very pleased, much better than last time we tried! Starting from a tunnel about 20ft back and running out through jump wings about 15ft after the DW.
I labeled all the ones I jackpotted and did not reward. Those I can see pretty clearly. The ones that aren’t labeled got small rewards. Those 2 foot hits with one high and one low (like #1) are still hard for me to see.
Great!!! Time to raise a DW some!
Hi Silvia, I had a good day with Saga…YEAH. I initially worked her on the a-frame, then some sequencing. She did well. I have video of her a-frame at competition height but I have not edited it. Then I was working my competition dog on the dw and I noticed she was in the window watching us with that look like, “it should be me”. So, I lowered it to 31″ and tried. She watched me throw the ball over the low jump so she knew where it was, then we ran a short sequence that wrapped to the dw. I found this session very interesting because it was the first time in a long time I’ve seen her experiment with her strides. You’ll notice after a leap she adjusts and changes. I don’t thinker speed is as good as it was but I think she’s thinking about what she is suppose to do. I’m eager to hear your thoughts. ~Sondra
That definitely looks much better. I would stay on this height for a while though and work towards higher successful rate.
Yes. I agree. Thanks for your feedback.
Hi Silvia:
Tai’s dogwalk is looking good as I add more challenges. However, I’d like you to please take a look at his A-frame from a session today. I haven’t specifically worked on his A-frame in about 3 weeks; just had it occasionally in sequences. He’s missing in most of these today. In some, he just hits once and is off. Then when he does put in a second FF hit, he’s not following through with his RF on the board. I have to admit this may have been going on for some time and I just didn’t pick up on it. Any suggestions?
Thx -- Anne & Tai
Hm, looks like Tai is thinking about front feet too much again… He is trying to hit twice with front feet, but forgets about an option to hit it with hind feet. He would be nicely in on every of those tries if only his hind feet reached forward and pushed off. And even when he uses hind feet, they don’t reach forward much and are together… I would try lower A-frame and see if he strides normally there.
Interesting, huh? How much to lower it do you think? Should I not worry about 1FF hit or 2 FF hit as long as I see RF -- split in contact zone? Especially at a lower height, he’s going to try to do it in one hit. Here is a previous submission from RC I and an early A-frame session -- before he forgot to use RF. The A-frame is 4 links below full ht. There are a variety of hits. I was not very good at seeing what to reward. Can you tell me what you would reward? I looked at Liryk’s A-frames from previous class and think Tai should be doing that too but for some little glitch in his head or mine :-).
Anne & Tai
I would maybe lower it a little bit more as on this video and then just stare at the contact and reward for split feet in 🙂 -- no matter how he gets there. Knowing his hind feet problem, I would jackpot 5, 8, 10, 11 and 12 here and would give small reward for 1, 7, 14 as the legs are split -- despite high. I would actually be rewarding 3 and 13 too as well: the legs are split and in… Not an ideal way to get in, but flying usually goes away with experience. Now in 2 and 6, 9 he is nicely in, but knowing his problem, it might be better not to reward those I think. I might be rewarding differently with another dog, but I think for him, split hind feet might be the most important key to better A-frames.
Hi Silvia
Our first session with the lowered A-frame is below. I’m still developing my eye and rewarded at least once when I shouldn’t have. It’s so funny that even with the same setup, nearly every attempt is different. He certainly seems to think out of the box!
I’d like your feedback…it’ll be a few days before we can work on this again. Do you think I should lower it a bit more?
Anne & Tai
Funny yes, all those different stridings… And yes, try what gives you an even lower A-frame. To avoid too much flying on such a low A-frame, you can try angled, less-speedy approaches and see if that gives you better striding.
Hi Anne!
Just wanted to say thanks for wanting Tai to do his aframe like Liryks! But wanted to put your mind at ease as Liryk even now is going through a faze where she is too high or doesn’t have alot of hind feet separation :-/ Just hoping with confidence and experience it goes back to being like that original video LOL
Good luck!! I’m sure he’ll work it out!!
Megan and Liryk 🙂
Thanks Megan…good to know all dogs give us things to think about!
Anne and Tai
LOL there’s definitely ALOT of thinking going on with these running contacts that’s for sure!! But I’m loving every minute… even the I want to rip my hair out moments LOL
Megan and Liryk 🙂
Hi Silvia and classmates,
I wish I had good news about good progress to report, but unfortunatly I do not. Things just are not going well for us again. It’s very disheartening. I just don’t understand what I am doing wrong, why it is taking us so long and why we have so many set backs. I watch my classmates videos and it seems most are doing well and some are even at full height already! I guess I will be in your third RC class in January 🙁
Anyhow, here is today’s session. It was horrible. I did not slow anything down on the video, because they were almost all misses. I changed sides, I had her start from a sit/stand, cik/cap around a jump. I moved the jump slightly from the side to right in front, I ran with her, behind her, ahead of her, I threw the ball before, etc.
Ania,
where are you from? This snow… :))
I am keeping my fingers crossed the rc turn better soon…
Vendula
I’m from Manitoba, Canada. This is not lots of snow yet, this is just the beginning 🙁
Thank you. I watched your videos the other day, and you and Kiwi are doing very well. Congratulations on getting to a full height DW!!!
Well, the good thing is that she doesn’t look airy to me, it just looks like she is too high, possibly because a DW is somewhat icy and her stride is shorter? She seems to add additional stride when she hits… Can you count how many strides she was doing before the snow and how many she is doing in this video? Of course, she will eventually need to be able to adjust to anything, but maybe it’s just too advanced for now… You could do some starting from different spots to try to teach her that. How was her session before this one? And was it in snow already?
Before the snow she was doing 6 strides on the DW, and with the snow she is doing 6 here too (if I am counting correctly)
The last session was in snow and it was not good either, not as bad as this one though: 8 hits, and 14 misses.
I cover the DW up with tarps so there is no ice on it. It is slippery running on the snow however. Maybe that is making the difference? I do have access to an indoor training facility once a week only. But the DW there is not adjustable and I am reluctant to add a plank to the down ramp because it messed Maia up in the spring and summer so bad that I had to go back to plank work. Plus the plank that is there, is not long, so her stride will be off again. I have had her run the full height DW in class (1-2 times a class in the last 4 weeks) and when she was in, she would add an extra stride on the down ramp.
Yeap, her strides are definitely shorter now, could be because of the slippery snow yes. However, she does need to learn to adjust to different situations too, so I think you should just take it as a training opportunity. She again reminds me of Le, her contacts were perfect in training, but I was mostly training in ideal conditions: ice approaches, rubber DW etc. But then at trials, on new DWs (and mostly wooden ones), her strides were shorter and she ended too high. What I did then was lots of releasing from different spots on a DW (first from a good ones only, then adding harder&harder ones too) to practice it with less speed too and “force” her into different striding. I also did lots of ugly, no speed approaches and then all other possible approaches too. It finally gave me more striding variety and helped her understand there are more ways to get in. There are still situations that are hard for her, but this training really helped her a lot.
Hi Silvia 🙂
Still having some “turn” problems with Liryk 😛 Think this is THE MOST challenging part for us!!
She does seem to be better when I’m able to put the jumps further out in class, but at home I don’t have as much room to play with. I videoed a couple of training sessions that we did yesterday and today and I noticed she seems better if I don’t run? Do you think that is too much information for her to deal with at the moment? me running and her still trying to hit the end of the d/w and get the jump? or am I doing something different when I’m walking vs running? What do you think?? Feel like we are progressing VERY slowly LOL
Megan and Liryk 🙂
Those 90 degrees turns are often the hardest… How is she on 180 degrees turns? Normally, I handle 90 degrees either as a straight line (pushing forward and call once they’re on a contact -- I go for that if there is nothing too close -- see my reply to Anne’s diagrams) or as a collection, 180 degrees turn (lots of deceleration + verbal cues to turn -- in case I really need them tight) as 90 degrees often cause them to be high.
Yes I did see Anne’s diagram’s but I got a little confused with the answer sorry!! So you only call…. their name? when they’re in the contact zone? is that right? hmmmm think I need to work on my timing ALOT!! LOL
To be honest I’ve neglected her 180 degree turns since Edge came and when I tried them yesterday they were horrendous!! and I debated about doing a 2o2o for those turns….. She seems to really hit the ground quite hard in front of the d/w and I was worried about injury? Maybe I’ll send some video of both (180 turn and 2o2o) and you could let me know what you think?
Thanks!!!
Megan and Liryk 🙂
Sure, just send it! And yes, in some situations, I’ll just run straight and call their name as they’re on the contact for 90 degrees. When this would require too good timing (something tempting very close straight ahead), I handle it as a collection turn. I don’t have a middle way and decide based on a situation if I will tell them on a DW to extend (go-go cue) or to collect (left/right cue).
Wow I’m really in awe of your handling of running contacts with your dogs!! I was just watching your runs of Bu and Bi at last years Eiskristall Cup and I can’t believe what you had to pull your dogs off of at the end of the d/w! Soooooooo impressed!!! I feel EXTREMELY uncordinated when I look at my videos LOL
We have made a HUGE improvement on our d/w in the ring 🙂 Last night is the first night that Liryk managed to get a nice deep hit. I handled it with a front cross and really tried to make sure I didn’t rotate too early. But when I was watching I can hear myself saying go go go to her even once she was off the d/w!! ARGH poor Liryk :-/
The next video is of her 2o2o and 180 turns that I was talking about. What do you think? I slowed down the 180 so you could see how she kind of jumps and turns at the bottom?
Thanks!!
Megan and Liryk 🙂
Wow, that sure was nice and deep! The turns are somewhat high and leapy yes, but then, Bu sometimes looks like this too and yet she is always in, so I stopped worrying about it. 2on2off looks nice too, especially as you are not planing to do lots of it: but a stop here and there shouldn’t hurt, so you can certainly use that in trials if you don’t trust her turning contacts completely.
Thanks Siliva I think I’ll persevere with the running turns (2o2o just isn’t the same as a running!!LOL)
I do have a question about the set up of the last trial run above. At training last night I set the tunnel and d/w up just like we had in the trial, to try different handling options (like you’d mentioned to Kriszty) and I couldn’t get the close tunnel entry with a pull AT ALL, there were no missed contacts (which was great) but she was so fixated on the “easy” tunnel entry at the end I couldn’t get her off it 😛 She was great when I front crossed (like I did in the trial without the WIDE turn LOL) I’m just not sure how to get the other skill of “pulling” to that extreme. She is getting better with jumps, but tunnels seem a different thing.
I’ve set up alot of different tunnel entries at the end of the d/w and done pushes and pulls and she seems to cope with that fine, do I just begin to angle the tunnel more and more to the side? Or do you think that it’s something to be “aware” of in a trial (she does have SERIOUS tunnel suck issues!! 😀 even just on a normal course she has been known to bypass obsticles to get to a tunnel!! LOL)
Thanks!!
Megan and Liryk 🙂
I would definitely work on “don’t take every tunnel you see” away from DW training as that would definitely help with handling tunnels after the DW too. And then yes, just pulling the tunnel after the DW more to the side and practice it after the DW too. Meantime, handle it in trails the way to avoid the problem, but definitely work on it in training.