And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Spur’s a-frame -- again a missed contact (although it wasn’t called). It was a 90 degree tight turn off to a tunnel and I front crossed. I probably should have done a blind? I think I need to really manage his a-frame at this point and be mindful of these situations and adjust my handling better, right? This course had the a-frame twice and the second time I did a push and was actually trying for the far tunnel opening, so really not that much of a push and it was better. He did take the closer tunnel opening, but with less pressure his contact was much better.
His DW was FABULOUS!!!! 😀 No speed on entry and he NAILED his contact even with me peeling off to get that off set jump. That course bit a lot of people on that last jump as they either missed the contact or missed the jump. I love how you can hear someone saying……..”Nice dog walk!” in the crowd!! Very proud of Little Spur yesterday!!!! His speed was very much improved at this trial! I know he has more to come, but he just gets more confidence and more speed all the time!!! 😀
That DW was sure great!!! With an A-frame, experiment some in training and see what he likes the most. With my dogs, blind crosses really give me nice hits, but front crosses are not an issue either. I think the worst is if I’m behind a lot, but that doesn’t happen often. So try different things and then in trials go for whatever gives you the nicest hits.
We haven’t been training much for the last week. Last weekend i was teaching at a agility seminar and Zushi was my demo dog to show them a little about running contacts. The dogwalk was not at full height. but 20 cm lower. It was first time in a new place, and first time on rubber contacts. Zushi jumped the two first tries, but then sha had 6 hits, and two of them was really good and low 🙂
Friday i was training in an indoor hall, and the dogwalk was at full heigth. She jumpede some times but she also have som really good and deep hits. She has a reaaly good acceleration.
And today we raised the plank in the garden to 110 cm. And here is the video of todays session. It was also first time with handling different jumps after the dogwalk (i know.. too many new challenges.. )
Yeah, that was lots of variables… I would prefer taking it somewhat slower to have higher successful rate, she is still missing more as I would wish for. On new DWs, she was hitting when doing the whole DW or starting from her good spot?
On the new dogwalk she was hitting when doing the hole DW.
And the new dogwalk was 20 cm longer on the down ramp.
Yes, I guess that actually made things easier for her as she could then add that one stride more on a down ramp that she is often skipping on yours when she comes with full speed… But well, she will need to get used to all the different lengths, so it’s good to train on as many different ones as possible.
Hi Silvia, I’m posting my session with Saga today. I angled the jump more and tighted up the approach, about 15′. It helped a lot with the up. She got it every time but our success rate was low. Only the 2nd attempt was a jackpot. I felt she did a good job running the down on this attempt the other attempts toward the end she is a little bouncy/leapy. I noticed on my film that the ramp is also a little bouncy so I will support that better.
I’m also going to take my see saw plank and place it on the ground for both dogs. I want to practice the up with Twitch and the down contact with Saga. I’ll start on the flat and then move to a small slope that I have in my yard.
Thanks, Sondra
Hi Sondra
Where did you get that dog walk?
It’s from Atomic. Tracy and Jeff Lacrosse in Maine.
I have to admit, my dogs have me banging my head against a wall right now. I really thought Saga was getting it…the previous 2 sessions I could see her adjust her stride after a couple of misses. I also noticed that I thought Saga was looking at me again, I was carrying her toy yesterday and releasing it if she got it so I can try placing it after the jump too to keep her focus forward.
Thanks for your feedback. I will send tape of our plank work. I should be able to train again tomorrow.
Yeap, definitely help her succeed as much as possible, so do use a static toy if it gives you higher successful rate. RC training can be somewhat frustrating yes, it sometimes looks like they got it and then next session looks like they didn’t… Having to go back some to help with their understanding is not unusual at all.
Thanks for your encouragement:)
Hm, yes, now she is too high with 5 hits… You can try to play with approaches some to help her hit, like giving her somewhat speedier approach still. But at one point, she will need to learn to do adjustments on her own, so some of the “get that contact from any starting point” game of starting her on different spots on a DW (a good one first and then slowly challenging her more) would be good IF it doesn’t confuse her again… She clearly needs more understanding on the importance of the end. Some plank work might help too yes. For up contacts, go with a slope right from the start, to not make it look too much like a down contact!
Hi Silvia,
Below is Shim’s DW from the last trial. Very disappointing, not sure what she was doing! It was a 45-50 degree turn off the end, to the tunnel (closest entry). Since it was at the start I led out, since she is generally better if she knows exactly where she is going. It looks like she slowed down, then just leapt! The other person in the class with a running DW (Megan with Liryk), handled it straight, as if going to the other tunnel entry, and then front crossed. She got a nice DW but I would worry about getting a refusal with very nearly running past the entry. Thoughts? The second link is the full agility run, so you can see better where the tunnel was, and where I stood.
On the positive side, Ink’s extension seems to be better lately, no vid at the moment though.
Thanks
Kriszty
So you were basically standing still the whole time? I think she read it as a collection cue and was collecting too much to still get into that contact. The way I would handle this situation is to only lead out until beginning of a DW (or even less) and then run with them, say “go go” but end enough behind them that they would incline into me and I could then just say tunnel -- or maybe call some if it looked necessary. Collection on a DW really doesn’t look necessary in this situation. I don’t think the way Megan handled was risky for a refusal though as I think the refusal line is almost parallel to the DW, so what Lyric did was a big turn, but it couldn’t be called a refusal.
Anyway, try to set different situations like this in training and then try to handle them different ways: with a front cross, running rear cross (as I would do), statically, being on the other side and pushing on her line to push for tunnel, maybe even with a blind cross etc. and see what works best for her. As I said, I try to avoid front crosses, especially with Bu (doesn’t matter for La) and with Le, my preference is pushing as she doesn’t pull ahead on her own enough while me in front and pushing always gets her deep, so I might actually handle this with her on my left -- but of course wouldn’t do it with Bi and her length of stride as that might get me in a hospital 🙂 So different things work best for different dogs and you certainly want to try it in training first. Try setting as realistic trial situations as possible: setting just one jump and moving it is good training, but not enough to prepare them for things they will see in trials.
Yup, agree entirely Siliva, thanks. Yes was standing completely still. Was thinking probably should have handled it with a running RC looking back, cause I also think she was too collected.
Yes definitely needs to be tried in training.. unfortunately there are SO many scenarios and a limited time I can work her with her hips.. makes it interesting I guess! I have a 1/2 DW (1/2 height and length), and I dont think she is transfering the work we do on that to the full DW which is a pity.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Kriszty
Maybe you can leave training turns for now as those are mostly good when in isolated situation and instead focus more on real course examples? I’m in this phase with Le now, she is 100% with just one jump out there, on predictable place. But a sea of obstacles when she is coming down that ramp still often makes her not extend enough… She is fine after 2 tries on a same set, but new sets are still difficult for her. I can help a lot with handling though, but I really need to push to keep her in full extension in those situations: and she really needs to be full extended as she is doing the same striding as most BCs and she is tiny.
OK, will give it a try 🙂
Thanks!
Kriszty
Silvia, The video starts with the DW session # 7 sense the last one I sent. I’ve been raising it at one inch at a time and I’m now at 33 inches. During the first two sessions I moved the tunnel until I was getting good hits with separation. In sessions four and five I moved the tunnel many times and he is now starting to adjust his stride so that he is in on the contact.
Today is the first time on the AF sense the last video. It is now at four feet three inches high. I only ran him a few times because I didn’t want to mess up the separation and have to start all over again. His last run was not good.
It’s private…
I must hold the record for not changing my video from Private to Public.
I just ordered your new DVD, can’t wait to see it!
Sorry to see that the session is ending in 3 weeks because I started late. :0(
Bill
The DVD is on its way! If you want, you can join the next class for the 3 weeks that you missed of this one… -- If you’re not planning to join the whole class anyway?
Looks good! Just continue like that. I would focus on a DW for now, only do some A-frames here and there, on the height that mostly gives you good separation.
Should I continue to raise the DW? If yes, How much at a time?
Yes, you can just keep raising it like you did so far, for an inch or two at the time.
Hi, Silvia. We’re back! Been a long break between Da Vinci’s neuter surgery and our holiday. Guess I better just post this. I must admit I was disappointed with how things went getting back to training. 2 1/2 weeks off certainly didn’t help, but I wasn’t expecting so much regression. This is our 3rd session back. The first few were very leapy! The tunnel is straight ahead from the DW and I am rewarding from hand. I was getting so many misses that I decided to put him on top for a few. Toward the end he seemed to be running more like what I remember (maybe even a bit more confident on top). Hopefully when I go out tomorrow, the trend will continue.
Let’s hope the trend continues! You can help some by straighter approaches maybe… Maybe off set that jump for a wrap or use another tunnel.
Better?????
Tried wrapping for straighter approaches today, BUT the cows in the adjacent field were too much of a distraction for Da Vinci.
Yeap, better! Let’s hope the trend continues. The good thing is that he clearly understands what his job is and will sometimes really make an effort to fit that additional stride in -- and well, sometimes still not 🙂 but I think you’re getting there. Did you try A-frame already too?
I did. He does pretty good. I haven’t been able to get video because it is in a class setting, but I followed the instructions. He is doing full height and is in most of the time. His hits are pretty high but occasionally I get one that looks like your picture. I haven’t put into sequences yet.
With his DW, should I be concerned about the two rear feet in the yellow that aren’t separated? I can’t tell if that is a low leap or him trying to get those feet into the contact zone. I’ve never seen him do that before. Is it normal to go through this every time we take a break?
Good. As long as he is always in, that’s fine. To me, it looked like his hind feet are together when he is shortening a stride to hit the contact, so I would let it be as long as they’re deeply in. And no, normally a break doesn’t cause any problems -- never saw it with my dogs. It could be that it affected Da Vinci’s performance because his DW performance is still not full out running and is therefore more prone to stride changes.
Hi there Silvia and Classmates.
Thanks Anne for the ideas when videoing, I shall try them.
The videos posted below are from 28, 29, 30 Nov. We have had some really bad days since our last post but hopefully I think we are finally getting somewhere. 🙂
I had a crazy idea, not sure if any one else has ever tried this, for trying to see Over- Reaching better, I put a sand pile just after the DW, as I noticed when Spy O-R’s her BF land just after DW on the ground so if I have sand there I should see foot prints and she kicks up sand, which means I must not reward and if they are further out then her contact is likely to be good. I am also watching the zone but I think this has helped me reward so much better. I am amazed and happy that even with me having been very bad at rewarding O-R she is still now using BF way more again. I did bring the cone in a little to take off a little bit more speed, I know crazy for RC but it seems to have help her get BF. Looking forward to your comments and how you see it and how should I progress as I don’t think we are quite ready for lesson 5.
I think we will be back for RC 111. Can we join and work on entries and exits and turns? Maybe you could have an open/advanced class, for all of us that are not quite finished, that covers work like entries and exits but not really lessons, or maybe exercises that help with all of these?
Thank you so much.
28 Nov 2011
29 Nov 2011
30 Nov 2011
Wow, what a progress! Happy to hear you found a way to help you see the overreach! 🙂 Just keep working like this! 1.08 of the last video was good to reward, I call it “dropping one front foot in” -- not exactly an overreach. I would also reward those hits that you were not sure of but would of course jackpot hind feet more. Next, you can try different entries and of course an A-frame if you din’t do that one yet? You can also try some other DWs if you get a chance too. But yes, I would wait some with the turns as those promote front feet again… So I think those will actually be easy for her 🙂
The sand was a brilliant idea -- I´ll try that with Ninja too!! 🙂
Silvia,
I have some more videos of my latest work.
Overall Punk is doing really well. He is getting pulls to jumps a ton better then pushes to jumps. I think right now in general I haven’t done much with jumps so they don’t have a lot of value. I can get him to push/pull from the DW but often he misses the actual jump. When i use a tunnel like the 2nd session -- he never misses ;).
It seems like he is more likely to leap off the right side then the left so i’m using a driveway marker at the end of the plank to help him stay on at this point. Also pushes are more likely to lead to leaps.
This setup is wrap pole to DW to 2 jumps at end to work slight turns.
This setup is curved tunnel to DW to curved tunnel (i like this setup as does Punk). I keep moving the ending tunnel to the left through the session.
I perhaps should not have rewarded 2.3 as it’s over reaching right?
I should just keep raising the height correct?
Looks great! Just keep raising it yes. Don’t do too extreme pushes for now, you’ll mostly be doing pulls after the DW anyway 🙂 You can do some jump work away from DW work to make them more fun. Still, at the beginning stages Bi was often running passed the jumps as she just found it too hard to take them at that speed, but I did a session or two of clicking taking the jump after a DW (not a contact anymore) and she got the idea. She still missed it occasionally, but I would insist she takes it before getting her toy and then she learned the importance of making an effort and taking that jump very quickly 🙂
these are videos from our last 3 session on the 2 foot dogwalk. After his last session on this height you had suggested raising it…there was no one there to help me raise it, we just did another session on the 2ft with a changed starting position. The dogwalk was also in a new location in the arena.
I was sending him out around a pole about 15ft before the dogwalk, that session was a lot more unsuccessful that the previous ones….I hadn’t seen leaps like that in a long time.
So we stayed at the 2ft for another 2 sessions. Session number 2 we started from a tunnel. Session 3 he started from a stationary position in front of the dogwalk, starting farther back every time.
Not sure if I should stay on the 2ft and challenge him some more with approaches…or raise it??
Thanks! We just signed up for the next session of classes!
Yeap, I think you can raise it, he is mostly running well and is definitely trying to hit it, but sometimes has troubles fitting in the fourth stride to more height might actually make things easier for him. Also, a word of caution: 2 was overreachy, meaning that hind feet reached unnaturally far for where front feet were landing and that caused him almost miss a contact. Tries like 4 where he still puts rear leg in too are o.k., but if you can spot tries like 2 (very high front leg and then no rear leg in), it’s better not to reward it. Also, did you reward 9 as you didn’t mark as no-reward? 9 was not good…
If he is o.k. on the next height, definitely introduce different approaches too next, using jumps at different positions for a starting point. Looking forward to see more of Chip in the next class!
Thanks I will really try and watch for those over reaching ones.
Number 9 was not rewarded…oops that’s what I get for not checking my work when I finish editing 😉
Good! I thought so, 9 would be hard to like 🙂