And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Ugh, I really am not good with video editing. 😛 Anyway, I am including a video of Spur back in February when you said he had a really good understanding and was making lots of adjustments. I notice with the ball tossed in advance his head is more up and he isn’t as comfortable. The hit-it boards may have affected him a bit, although they were HUGE in helping me learn to see hits and improved his understanding almost immediately because I was clearer with my jackpots.
This video is from September going into nothing one way and to a jump the other way. He seemed to need me ahead going into nothing --
This is our first session yesterday on the good set up that before Nationals he was 100% with me hanging back a little. Yesterday I really tried to push him vocally and run as far forward as I could and you will see it’s hard for him.
This video is the second session yesterday. Disregard the stupid texts, it got all scrambled and on the wrong clips. The leaps I didn’t reward, everything else I jackpotted. The last one was a one front tossed down, but he slipped on approach and so I jackpotted that effort.
(I wanted to compare his work as we have progressed. Everything with Spur takes a long time, so what is going on now I think is simply a matter of him getting more confidence and speed and I am thrilled!!!)
I think I should keep working at this step up for a while as it seems to me he is working out his “new” striding and actually starting to look more comfortable all around on it? Then I can present different challenges, like moving the tunnel and jump? Do you agree? Success rate is about 70% and he is doing fine with that.
Sure, he definitely looks faster now and with the new speed, three hits on a down ramp got harder and he is sometimes going for two, but that way he is often too high… Not sure if we really want to push for 2 for now, his 3 hits on a down ramps look really nice.
Well, it seems that 2 1/2 are perfect at speed and would allow him a smoother flow and stride pattern, so that is more what I am going for, not necessarily 2 strides. Does that make sense? Although, that does mean more front feet hits in the contact instead of hind as he would do front, hind, front, hind, front, right?
Right. That’s actually what I called 3 hits: I actually meant 2 1/2. Two hits (front-rear-front-rear) would give you too high/limit hits I think.
Last month has been bad from a training perspective; I have been sick for several weeks and finally back on the training field the grass field was closed and only gravel field open for the winter… Tea is not very fond of gravel and I am working hard now to keep her happy and fast even if the beloved grass has to wait for the spring. However, I think last session was quite good. I combine full DW and release from the DW depending on her success rate. Last run I had the feeling that she shortened her stride in order to hit the contact. After being invisible in the class for a while I am eager to hear what you think of her performance and how you suggest I proceed.
Her problem seems to be that she is in between 4 and 5 strides: she is too high when going for 4, but the fifth one is hard to fit in, she does need to shorten it. You can try to help her to fit 5 in by trying ugly approaches -- sending her on around the pole that you set at the beginning to assure safe approaches. Raising it some would be another option to try. If that works and you get high enough successful rate when running the whole DW, I would definitely focus on fading the helper with a toy next. You could first set a short straight tunnel between the DW and the helper, then start to curve it some and finally have her run the DW, take the tunnel and get the toy from the same person running her, thanks to a curved tunnel.
I tried with somewhat higher DW today but it wasn’t as easy as I hoped… Maybe she needs to get used to the height, maybe the problem is something else. What do you think? Should I continue as shown in the video or should I do something differently?
Hm, yes, not so good… It could be it’s because of a new height, she is shortening her strides a lot. I think I would do a couple sessions more and see the trend and if it doesn’t get better, go back down. Try starting her at the same spot that gave you nice hits (in the middle of the video) and then move her further back and see what you get.
I think she is improving. This is our 2nd training session after the previous video. She is sensitive to changes, so it is not a huge surprise that she is reacting on the height (even if I hoped she wouldn’t). What do you think? How should I continue?
Wow, that’s sure lots of progress!!! I wouldn’t change any more variables for a while now and instead try to get her extend even some more and hit even lower, so basically selecting for lower hits. Once there, the next step would be to put a helper with a toy behind the jump/tunnel and slowly fade the helper. And then the third step would be to introduce different approaches to DW.
We will soon continue our training indoors with other type of DW. Again, she will probably react on another DW (e.g. longer ramps). Should I work on the same height as she is working right now and give her some sessions to adjust to the new DW or should I run her on lower height?
I guess you can try this height first and then see how it looks like after two or three sessions.
Hi all, I’m sending video of Saga’s a-frame. We had started another running a-frame method before this assignment. The method I used included using a PVC box to outline the down contact zone. The training begins on the ground then I moved it to a very low a-frame, about 2′ at the apex. I then added a stride regulator on the up because Saga wanted to one hit the up. From there we’ve been raising the height and I had begun fading the box prior to the assignment. When you gave this assignment I decided to fade all the PVC to see what I would get. The a-frame is at 5’4″ which is still a little low for competition height.
The video is the second day with the above set-up and her performance was consistent. My criteria is 2 hit on the up and down.
Let me know what you think.
The
Cool, but I would actually go straight to the full height now as going for one hit will be less tempting then and you’ll get even more of two hits.
ok. I’ll raise it:)
Hi all, here’s video on Twitch. I feel like she’s struggling a little bit. She use to have a rock solid a-frame, with a 2 hit up and down. Today she wasn’t able to get it until I lowered the a-frame. It seems like this assignment is good timing.
in regards to the up on the dog walk. I’ve taken the plank and put it on a small hill. When I get that edited I’ll send it.
Thanks, Sondra
I think RC training gave her even more speed and that’s why she is going for 1 hit now… However, I let it be as long as they’re in… I can’t imagine Bi doing two hits at all, it would be very hard to maintain it as she would need to shorten her stride so much. She always does one and is always in. Bu is always in too, mostly with two hits, but also doing it in one sometimes -- I don’t mind. If you want two, you can try approaches with less speed, but again, I think it will be hard to maintain it when she is highly excited and in full speed…
yes. the extension she is showing me is inccredible, but accuraccy had deteriorated with everything, including jumps b/c she’s flattening out so much. We’ve been revisting foundation jump work as well:)
I will start rewarding everything, one hit or two. We compete in 2 different venues, AKC & USDAA, and each organization has a different a-frame height. My thought of a 2 hit down was that I was making it easier for her with a changing angle. My other dog has a hard time switching back and forth…he wants to one hit the 5’6″ but is just short of the contact zone.
I’m going to continue to practice ugly approaches on the dw with both dogs and continue to raise the dw. I will play a little with the jump after the dw but I’m concerned about our weather and I would like to get the dw to full height before we have snow. It will make renting a ring much easier.
Thanks agian for all your feedback! I’m just thrilled with the progress in my dogs.
If getting to the full height would make your winter training easier, then you can leave out moving of the exit jump for now and focus on adding height and then play with different exits later -- it doesn’t really matter. As for A-frame, it’s true that 2 hits A-frames look safer and more controlled, but for some dogs, it’s just not comfortable… In case of two different heights, I would mostly train on higher height, but do some lower height before AKC trials.
Hi Silvia, I had a much better day with Twitch. I have her a-frame edited. Eager to hear you feedback.
Ps. She seemed happy when I rewarded the one hit. I’m happy with either as long as she can do it with control.
I LOVE that Twitch!! What a cool dog!
Amy and Little Spur
Silvia no film but a question on the ugly approaches. I’ve set-up 2 different sequences. The first was a serpentine to the dw. What I found was that the first couple of reps the dogs added the extra stride so they both did very nice 4 strides dw with good up and down contact. After 2-3 reps, they changed their jumping, became tighter, so they had more speed on the approach and both tried to 3 stride the dw. I stopped when I saw this and in the afternoon I placed a tunnel under the dw so they had to wrap tightly to the dw. They had to add a stride which I’d expect since the tight wrap took away speed. Their accuracy rate was about 50%. Should I continue with the tunnel set-up until accuracy is higher or do I alternate ugly approaches so they learn they have to change their striding. I think I’m at an important point in their learning and I want to challenge them but also set them up to succeed. Thanks for your input.
Normally, when I find a difficult set up for the dog, I’ll do 3 or 4 repetitions on that set up and see what is the trend: if it’s good, I’ll keep repeating to get better hits. If it’s bad trend or no trend, I’ll go to their good set up next for some good hits and then slowly introduce a difficult one (in your case maybe pulling the tunnel out some so that they still have somewhat more speed getting on a DW?) again.
Thanks for the guidance. This is a new skill not only for my dogs but for me as a trainer.
Thanks Amy! She’s a lot of fun.
Looks good! I like it when they know several different stridings that meet the criteria, it makes it easier for them to be in in every situation.
Hi Silvia
Do you think there would be anything wrong with us starting some work with the A-frame? Becase Sen has some height fears, I think it might help her to have something high but safely wide to work on. If you think it is ok, what to reward? As she will clearly be in the contact at low heights should I just let her run as she pleases? and perhaps ask when it is higher for upper 1/3 contact or something like that?
We have not had much training for contacts lately as my ground is too icy. We should have stable snow by now, but haven’t. I’m still not sure she gets the concept, but at least rewards after a curved tunnel are working now so toy rewarding is easier and I can fade out using food (or just stop, which is what I did).
I normally prefer being a little further with a DW… I guess it doesn’t hurt if you do a couple to see if she is o.k. with it and if she is, I would then leave it alone for a while -- and if not, you can do some more to get her more comfortable on it. I would be happy with anything lower as 10cm under the contact limit and would prefer her not much lower as that.
Thanks -- then we’ll save it for next year and just stick with DW
Silvia, This is a video of my last session on the low DW and Standard height AF. On the first run of the day, it seems that Max misses the contact on the dog walk most of the time.
We’re still working on the tight turn around a post and the pivot around to touch my leg. No video at this time.
To get him somewhat deeper on the A-frame, I wouldn’t do any off set jumps there -- just run him from one tunnel over the A-frame to another tunnel and jackpot the nicest ones. On a DW, I would like to see the whole DW to see what’s going on with his striding. He seems to be going for 4 strides again?
I messed up the video on the dw but here is our a frame.
she settled down after the first one.
a little behind on my tricks video but we are practicing
I would like to see some more hind feet separation, but I guess it will come when she starts to fly some less 🙂 Try raising it and don’t throw a ball in advance so that she doesn’t fly over an apex that much.
I think we are getting what you are looking for.
What do you think
Great! She is too funny with her 2on2off in between though 🙂 Continue like that and wait for a really nice, completely parallel position before rewarding: no swinging out rear ends!
working turns around a cone
Looks good!
wrap pole on the approach/ straight tunnel about 20 degrees to the right -- have been using low garden fencing for the straight exits but I put a wing back for the first time through
low jump on the left
Its been raining again so I used a stationary toy instead of throwing but got her revved up before I sent her to the pole.
I rewarded all but one and I thought she corrected after that.
still haven’t figured out how to put text in imovie -- anyone have the answer?
It’s definitely great she was in almost every time! But I think I wouldn’t want so much collection just yet: collection is a topic of the next lesson, I would still work on extension for now and only move exit jump/tunnel that much that she doesn’t need to collect on a down ramp yet.
aframe 1.5 meters, wrap pole before , short straight tunnel after
I threw the toy after she exited the tunnel (not when she 1 hit) but I think she likes the flying part
At this point, I would simply include A-frame in sequences, run it as just another obstacle and mostly not reward it at all. Straight tunnel and a toy after are still promoting flying, so try to just put it in sequences now and give her time to figure out the best striding -- without being in a hurry to fly to the toy 🙂
I only tried the A-frame with Nessa a few times as I wanted to look at the video and get some feedback before continuing. It was set at 5′. I started her fairly close but gave her more distance on the last one where she misses the up contact (not an issue for CKC or AAC but needed for other organizations).
She is still trying to figure out her striding over it.
Teresa and Nessa
Looks good, she just needs some more repetitions to figure out the striding. Do some more sessions, moving her back more and more and rewarding everything in, she will figure it out soon. You can then simply include it in normal sequences.
Thanks. I should have clarified what height I should try her at. Since missed the up contact I raised it to full height. I don’t think that she was ready for this. She was either leaping off attempting two strides on the downside or doing three. She wasn’t going over the apex very well or strangely. I am going to go back to 5 feet today (I don’t think you will have a chance to reply before I leave). I have more video but this one was so strange I put it on youtube first.
Her back feet push off air after the apex.
Teresa
Ps we had a do walk session yeserda. I threw a ball as you suggested.
We had a good dogwalk session. Missing some characters. Trying to type too fast on my tablet.
Yeap, not exactly what you’re going for, but it’s pretty normal for first few sessions: they do need some time to figure out the striding. But yes, put is somewhat lower to help her some.
Thanks Silvia. I did get your reply before I left last week. I went back to a 5 foot Aframe. Out of 11 tries I did not reward 2 (they were too high). I jackpotted the remaining 9 but looking at the video she wasn’t very good with the up contact on about 4 of them. It is hard to tell for sure because of the camera angle (I tried to mark it). I cannot tell when I am running with her as I am just watching the down contact. Except for 6 she is landing pretty close to the top of the A-frame after going over the apex. Not sure what to think of this as she is getting into the yellow.
Why she might be missing the up contact
Nessa decided early on that the best way to get up the stairs when she is going fast is to fly over them (probably safer).
Teresa and Nessa
Don’t worry about where she lands after an apex if she is nicely in. Up contacts can be more problematic, but I think she only missed one, so I would let it be for now, it often goes away on its own.
I tried a 5 foot A-frame again today. I set up a second video camera so I could see better what was happening on the upside. Of the seven tries she was clearly in on all of them! The A-frame had 3 slats in the yellow zone and her highest hit was near the top yellow slat. Most often she was below this slat. Her hind foot separation wasn’t that great except for the last one (7) on the down contact. She looks a bit unbalanced after she goes over the apex on the last one. Should I continue at 5 feet?
I raised up the dogwalk since Nessa was consistently doing well provided I threw the ball well (mostly front feet hits). I got mostly front feet hits as well at this new height. I started out with straight approaches from a sit and me ahead. I was being cautious and wanted to watch her. Then I had her go over a jump from 9 on from both sides (you can’t see it on the right hand of the screen but it is there). I am still throwing a ball (sometimes too late I think -- may explain 3). Sometimes when I do get back feet in the yellow they are close together. In 5, 11, 13 her back feet are close but 4 is better. 4 is also different because she doesn’t also have a front foot in the yellow. In 11 she jumps on to the dogwalk at the start differently (first time from that side). The last one is missing the caption “15 -- jackpot -- 2 front feet”.
Should I change anything?
Teresa and Nessa
Looks great! I would do a couple of sessions more on this height of the A-frame and raise the DW some more as she is running it really nicely and more height might actually make it easier for her at this point as she often needs to shorten that last stride to be in -- that’s also probably why she has hind feet together, it’s often when they’re shortening the stride.
Thanks. I went back today before getting a chance to see your reply. I left the equipment as it was and measured it. The dogwalk is 29.5 inches and the A-frame is 5 feet and 3.5 inches. The markings on the chain for the A-frame are incorrect (the club is planning on calibrating them). So it is closer to full height than I thought (5 feet 6 inches for us). I will check the videos and get back to you on how she did today. I think that the A-frame was better.
Nessa’s A-frame was much better. She got the up contact nicely and was in the yellow with at least three paws every time out of the 6 tries. She was below the highest yellow slat with at least one paw and had better hind feet separation (just one of the six wasn’t as good). Here is her deepest try
She gave me much more of a variety of hits on the dogwalk -- out of 20 tries
3 jumps or really high ones
8 2 front feet (or close to both front feet)
6 1 front and 2 back feet with none to good separation
1 2 back feet close
1 2 back feet good separation
1 4 feet!
Here is one of the ones with good back feet separation
Tomorrow I will try raising up the dogwalk some more.
Teresa and Nessa
Ps. We signed up for you January class.
Looks good! Time to raise the DW and also the A-frame!
Hi Silvia,
Not up to this lesson yet. I have a question on the A-frame. You want the apex at 1.5 meters, approximately how many feet is that? Thanks.
Google says 5 feet 🙂
Hi Sylvia,
I am lagging behind and might have to drop out from the class. 🙁 I obviouly did not foresee that I would be without a computer for 3 weeks, that I would be transferred (job-wise) to a different building with a commute between 1-1.5 hours each way, that I would get hit by a snowstorm and be without power for 8 days (with 10 inches of snow on the equipment) and that I would decide to accept a job in CA and move from the east coast to the west coast (with house for sale and all that other good stuff that comes with it).
Soooo…. I will be on the road for a week, and when I get there I will try to resume training but no guarantees as I won’t have any equipment with me. I am very disappointed obviously but there is not much I can do…
I am posting videos of Rev (trying til the very last minute!) Last time Rev was on a plank. I changed his set up to 2 dogwalk planks side to side. It’s about 2 inches higher than what the plank was last time (because of the structure underneath the dogwalk planks).
He is not doing as good as the last sessions. In the last sessions, he was starting with no-hits but after 3-4 times was doing some nice hits. You will see 3 sessions, 3 days in a row. First session starts with hits and near non-hits, but ends with a series of miss. Second session is a bit better (sorry about the bad lighting on this one) but still has a large number of miss. And he seems to be doing it to avoid the near miss. Third session is not better.
Looking for your advice… I will try to do and post two more sessions before I leave (no guarantees -- leaving in less than 48 hours…)
Nancy
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For some reason I couldn’t see your video, Nancy, but good luck with all the changes in your life! And don’t worry about being behind with the class. I have pretty much the same situation and I’ve just decided to enjoy those training sessions we have and not to worry about things we haven’t been able to do. Who cares if our running contacts won’t be ready before next summer 😉 I just try to learn as much as possible from everyone else’s videos before we get there on our own training 🙂
Thanks! I am not sure why you could not see the video -- I checked and made sure it’s available to anyone. Hope Sylvia can see it!
It might be something with my work computer settings. I’ll try again later at home with my own computer.
I fixed the link so I works now, V in http(V) is only valid for YouTube, Vimeo links need to be without V.
I think what made things worse is a table. After landing on a table, he first hits a plank so deep down that it’s often impossible to add another stride -- if any, he can fit in that one front leg at the very end. We need to change the setting to make things easier for him. The best would actually be a low DW. If not possible, set up an up-ramp to a table to a down-ramp. Or add a second table to lengthen it, that would help too.
Anyway, I wish you a smooth move and I hope you are back to a training soon!