And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Hello Silvia,
We are not yet ready for the new homework but are making progress! Last night I was able to send Eli into a tunnel and then throw the ball after he exited the tunnel. This is the first time he did this with good hits every time:-)! This was very encouraging! Also in some previous correspondence with you, we had discussed using the MM with Eli instead of the ball to get him to run. After careful consideration I decided to stick with the ball. Eli is very much a worrier at trials. He is fearful of other dogs and as long as he is on his leash he feels safe but as soon as the leash comes off in the ring he becomes worried. Since we have started RC training the value of his ball has increased significantly. I have been using this value at trials to get him to RUN and not become so worried and so far this has worked!!! He has had some GREAT runs at trials in the last couple of months. I didn’t want you to think that I was ignoring your suggestion. If it turns out that this RC training helps with his fear issues at trials then I very well may fly to Slovenia and give you a BIG hug:-)
I tried the same with Liberty (sending to tunnel from DW) and she is still not ready to progress to this level. However, she is letting me run with her now and she is not slowing down to look at me. Her hits are also deeper. It would appear that she is extending on the last full stride and this is causing her to hit much deeper. I am continuing to raise the height of the dog walk with both dogs.
After several bumps in the road, I am pleased with how both Eli and Liberty are doing. Doing this RC training is a journey. By the time I finish a training session I am exhausted from all the running I am doing:-)
Thanks,
Melanie, Eli & Liberty
Great!!! I definitely noticed before that RC training has a great affect on speed in other areas of agility and can do wonders for worried dogs -- Amy who is in this class too says the same for her Spur. Hopefully it will also help Eli, I would sure like to get that hug! 🙂 I was only suggesting to use mm because you though he can’t think because of the ball. I definitely prefer a ball otherwise and as a transition to a send to tunnel went well, I would just keep working like that. With Liberty, I would keep throwing that ball. She is definitely extending much more as on the last video you posted. You could also try running even more 🙂 and being well in front of her when she is getting closer to the contact: that might work just as well as a ball and might be easier to fade.
Yes! Spur’s confidence and speed has greatly improved with this work! His recovery time after a scary incident is much quicker! But……..that makes his RDW a little different and I think that’s what is going on here more than just the “going into nothing”. He is much faster on it now. I really need to make a movie…….sigh. I have simply not had time lately, so I haven’t even filmed it.
I think he is running faster and not striding through the contact as well because of that and sometimes just leaps. Yesterday’s session was interesting. I moved back to his good set up and he leaped one out of maybe 10? Sorry, I am not good at counting reps. But, he was high on several with little hind feet seperation and I didn’t reward those. Then he had several that were REALLY awesome and perfect and fast and I jackpotted them. I think he just needs to figure out that he CAN do it now even with more speed. (Yes, we had the speed when we were at the lower height and throwing the ball in advance, but then lost some of it as we progressed) At trials he is never as fast, so I think this is definitely an experimental stage that he has to go through. His confidence is SO much better and everything is looking better. I think going to Nationals was a huge boost for both of us!!! 😀
I think we just need to keep working on different challenges again, as his RDW is an evolving thing as he gains confidence. We had about six months of pretty consistent same speed and confidence and suddenly we are now hitting a boost in that and it’s affecting his striding. A good “problem” to have!!! 😀
I am very pleased with the little guy!!!
Of course. Different speed requires different striding. That why, if you train it with less speed, things fall apart when the dog adds more speed. And actually the same way the other way around: they might know how to do it with speed, but not necessarily how to do it without… So Spur is actually hitting really consistently considering that he has many different speeds! 🙂
Eli has always been very fast in training but at trials he is typically nervous once we get in the ring. It can be the dogs outside the ring, the leash walker, chute fluffer, etc. In the last 3 months since we started RC training I have seen some changes in him at trials. It may be a coincidence but I don’t think so. He still has issues from time to time but his starts are much faster. He popped out of his weaves at the last trial because the judge was standing a little close. But once we got past the weaves he picked it up and finished the course beautifully. It used to be that if something like this happened he had a difficult time recovering.
Below is a video of one of Eli’s standard run from our last trial two weekends ago. This is was a qualifying run for him which is huge as these are few and far between. He can be faster than this but for him runs like this at trials are HUGE and you can see in the video when he sees the dog walk he picks up speed. I noticed the same of Little Spur in one of the videos posted.
Melanie, Eli and Liberty
That sure was pretty fast!!! 🙂 And I’m pretty sure he will just get faster&faster! 🙂 So what are you doing on his contacts in trials now? Just run and see?
Eli was trained with a 2o2o but when he started trialing it became very obvious that this made him worry more. So my goal at trials Would be to just let him run and get some confidence. Mostly on the DW he has not been as fast as in the video so contact was not an issue. Then I started taking your
Class and would you know all his DW at trials have been good and fast (knock on wood) So to answer your question in the long form, yes we Just run and see.:-) but never any correction in the ring. I feel like if he misses we will work on in training where he is most confident.
Great! Sounds like it will be easy to transfer the new behaviour to the ring 🙂
Hi Silvia,
I posted this before on the main page. Should we be posting on the current lesson page?
In this video the plank is raised on a brick. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
I just replied there, but will copy it here too so that it’s easier to find:
Great, most of those were really great, despite you also marked one that wasn’t AND you’re mostly marking it too late… – maybe clicker would make it easier? Anyway, she is sure running nicely, so try raising it some more and starting her with a wrap or a tunnel for even more starting speed. Also, move a bowl further, behind a jump with a bar on the floor as explained in lesson 3, to eventually be able to fade it.
Yesterday I tried to place a toy in a tunnel-opening after the dogwalk. I was not satisfied with Ninjas speed. He still seems to be a bit hesitant on the upper part (uses a very short stride) maybe because his fall the other day..?
I gave him 3 tries with a placed toy. I rewarded hindlegs above the contact a bit more than frontleg-hits. I think he made his strides a little longer strides every run. But since his speed didn´t increase enough, I decided to throw a ball in advance for a couple of runs. That made him use just 4 strides again! However his strides on the upper ramp was still much shorter than on the up- and down-ramps…
I guess I have to keep throwing the ball ahead until his striding on the top-ramp is okey again?
The last run was very nice and he kept running right into the tunnel too before he got the ball! 🙂
The tries with a thrown toy are sure beautiful! Definitely keep throwing it to get more hits like that! Once he gets more confident and uses longer strides on a top ramp, you will need to stop doing it to not get 3-strides again, but at this moment, that’s definitely the thing to do! Those were really beautiful hits.
Yay, more beautiful hits today! 🙂
And definitely better and better striding. He missed two upcontacts with frontleg-hits (a bit overreachy) on downcontact as a result. Do you think I should continue like this for a while or do something differently?
Great!!! I really liked those 3 tries you marked as perfect: not only because the hits were really perfect, but because he seems to be adjusting his stride on the second apex in order to hit it (he would be too high if he didn’t do those adjustments there) -- that’s a very good sign and a very good spot to do the necessary adjustments. Great job!
I´ve been forced to work on Ninjas speed again… A couple of days after the last film, when we practiced there was some kind of big bombing-drill in the militaryfield next to our trainingfacility. Ninja isn´t usually bothered by gunshots, but this was extremely noisy and he got scared and didn´t want to play or run. 🙁
So since then I´ve just tried to make him happy to run again. Tonight I think he was almost back to his normal self again. 🙂
But I´m a bit conserned about his short strides on the top-ramp…
A friend of mine held him by the collar and another friend ran away with a toy (I just stood still and watched the contact -- lazy me 🙂 )
The last three repetitions he ran throw a straight tunnel after the dw before he got to play with my friend.
Do you have any idea about how to make him stride more evenly over the hole dw, or should I just keep working like this?
Well, the good thing is that he is in almost every time and that there were some really nice jackpotable hits. It’s true he is making some funny small steps at the top though… You could try if early throws (he would need to see the ball as he is getting to the top plank) would help. Or, you can try running him from tunnel over DW to tunnel and back, jackpotting the best hits and ignoring all the rest and see if he starts to extend more. I think it will come with time, but those two things usually really help with extension.
I haven´t tried the two-tunnel-setup, because unfortunately Ninja doesn´t have so much drive towards tunnels 🙁
But yesterday I tried to throw the ball earlier. I think the striding got a little better, but not good enough… He used 4 strides every time and if he would have extended the third stride a bit more, he would have hit the contact perfectly. But he didn´t. 😛
I rewarded him anyway to encourage the speed. At last I started him from the horisontalplank to get a jackpotable hit.
Today I tried the dw on full height to get 5 strides and not miss the contact. At first he was a bit hesitant. Then he fitted in 5 strides (shorter on top plank again) and hit the contact with frontlegs almost every time. Some were a bit overreachy..?
Do you think I should go back to the lower dw and continue to work on the striding on the top plank and stay there until he can use just 4 strides and still hit the contact? He has done before, so I don´t understand why he won´t do it now…
(I will try the setup with two tunnels too)
It really doesn’t make any sense, not sure why he shortens 3rd stride so much and then extends 4th one so well! It almost looks like he is avoiding striding over an apex… Maybe something happened there? For 5 strides, he needs to shorten the 5th one too, so yes, he is often overreaching. I think it would be worth trying to do some sessions on a lower DW again yes and see if you can get him stride over an apex again (hind feet on a down ramp first) -- I think it would be more comfortable way for him to do it.
I don´t understand what you mean with “hindfeet on downramp first”?
I think the reason he shortens the 3rd stride is to then be able to fly over an apex. For 4-stride pattern, he would need to stride through an apex, meaning hitting the end of a top plank with front feet and then hind feet hit high on a down ramp. That would take him to the contact with the next stride, so you would get hind-front-hind feet hits on a down ramp vs. front-hind-front as you’re getting now.
Silvia, Max’s A-frame is doing better than I expected and with the change in location the DW is now not as good. Tomorrow I’ll make a video of me starting the of pivot trick.
When are you throwing now? It looks like you’re only throwing after the contact, but I think you need to throw in advance for now for both AF and DW to get more extension and deeper hits. His full length stride is much longer as what I see on a down ramp now.
OK that’s easy to change. Thanks.
We are finally back to work, I’ve been sick with pneumonia the past two weeks. I was worried about getting out of practice, especially the first three reps he gave me, but he’s been pretty good! These are videos from the two sessions we’ve had this week. After the first three, they were all rewarded with a toy thrown after the jump he’s running to….then tugging. Also adding the tunnel to start.
Should I be worried about hits like #10?? Where he hits high in the yellow with a front foot, the very low with a rear foot. Because sometimes depending how how far he reaches forward, that rear foot might miss. I wasn’t able to see those hits in real time, I just noticed watching the videos.
Great!!! I would reward 10, but would try not to reward tries like 15 -- but yes, it’s hard to see in live. Do pay attention to it though as he is somewhat overreachy in that try -- see the problem we had with Fanny’s dog at first. Jackpot the tries with two legs nicely in the middle and try not to reward the tries with one high front foot and no rear foot at the end. But he is sure doing great now, I actually really liked 3 too as he seems to throw down that leg on purpose to hit it, so it was good to reward it, I would probably even jackpot the effort. Time to raise it some!
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Zap’s latest. She is on a full height AF (AKC). I work her at whatever height we will be showing at next. Sorry for the hard to see contact area on the AF. I can put a black line on it if you’d like. The reason for the very light color paint is due to living in the desert. The darker colors get a lot hotter in the sun. Zap was trained with Rachel’s Sanders box method. Even though initially she had to have 4 feet in the contact zone, it appeared she was happier with just the 2. Since she usually was in the zone, I figured this is what she is the most comfortable with and let it be. I do wish she would hit a little lower. Not sure if it is because she is looking at me with the toy in my hand. I was thinking of trying a couple AF’s with the toy out ahead on the ground to compare, or put a tunnel after the AF so she has something to drive to. Do you think I need to address this and if so, how?
Thanks for your help.
Her AF looks good with you in front, but she looks back at you and is too high when you’re behind. For now, try being in front, do lots of tunnel to tunnel stuff and for now throw a toy ahead when you’re behind. That should fix the problem, her striding looks good. Some really nice hits on DW too!
Question: when you say tunnel to tunnel do you mean a tunnel before and after the AF?
Yes, exactly.
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Working Zap on lower hits on the DW. Varying the approach to the DW almost each try. Jump after DW is changed either by angle or slightly moved offline. Have some questions. How many strides would you say Zap is taking on her DW’s? Where is the ideal hit in the contact zone? Contact zones are different lengths depending on which organization one is running under. This makes the slat placement different in each organization. Silvia do you think slat placement on the down ramp makes a difference? Will we be working tight turns off the DW in the next lesson? If the dog is missing the up contact, where would one place a stride regulator?
Yeap, you’re definitely getting some really beautiful hits now! Those at the end of a second video are pretty much ideal. She is doing 5 strides. I don’t think slats matter at all. We see all different lengths of DWs (from 3.6m to 4.1.m per plank), slats on different places and I also ran them on slat-less DW and they didn’t care. And yes, tight turns off the DW is a topic for the next lesson. For up contacts, I put some poles or plastic bottles right in front of a DW so that they can’t come too close, need to take off earlier and land on a contact -- see Cecilia’s video.
thanks Silvia
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Zap’s latest:
Question: when I go to a new location to train the DW, should I start by using a stationary toy to make things a little easier or go with what the dog gives me and work from there?
Her DWs sure look great!!! You can try new DWs without a toy first to see how she is running it -- it’s no problem for some of the dogs (Bi and La for example couldn’t care less and perform the same on any DW) and then it is for some (Bu and Le for example) -- so it’s good to know what you are dealing with. If you see she is fine, you don’t need to do lots of it and you can train the same things as at home. If you see she does have a problem, then definitely make it as easy for her as possible and try to do as many successful trainings on new DWs as possible.
The A-frame, you could maybe try to lower it and see if you get better hind feet separation and reach forward then. She reaches very deeply with her front feet, but then her hind feet don’t reach much deeper as that, while better reach forward and separation would instantly give you really nice, deep hits.
Hi Silvia, I wanted to post today to make sure my thought process is on the right track. I don’t have film as the wind blew my camera over 2x. Anyway. Today was the second day practicing at a new height. I increased about 5″. I sent to wrap the dog around the cone, then they went to a straight tunnel about 18′ away. Saga I think is getting it, we did 5 tries and they were jackpot, no reward, jackpot, no reward, jackpot. She adjusted her stride and was deep in the contact zone on the jackpots. Her speed was a little slower but I think she’s understanding that hitting the contact zone has value. I plan to progress by changing approaches, then changing jump after the dw. With Twitch she has started reaching on the up with the new set-up. I tried using a bar on the ground and had so-so success. I planned on trying one more session and if she can’t change her stride bring her back down to the previous height. Any other suggestions? Thanks. Sondra
You mean she is missing an up contact? I don’t think lower DW will help with it, but you can first trying moving the tunnel some, then try to find a good spot for a stride regulator and if it still doesn’t work, you can click her for correct entry on a plank on uphill. How were her down contacts?
she began reaching on the up contact…about half way on the up. her bottom contact was off as well. She had been hitting the upper third of the up contact zone. I’ll try playing more with the stride regulator and send you the tape. Thanks.
Silvia, I just started training Max on the pivot trick. First I show that he can pivot both ways without luring and then pivot both ways to touch my leg. I hope this is correct. Second is having him backup and raise his left rear leg onto a box. Any Suggestions?
Bill & Max
I guess the video is missing?
Sorry, I don’t know what happened, but here it is.
Bill
Great job! His pivoting is sure great, very fast and fluent and very nice backwards 2on2off too!
That was a GREAT suggestion to go ahead and go full height (and deal with whatever issues at full height) so I can continue training through the winter… I have a video from yesterday morning still at 37 inches and then at my class, the teacher let me do a little RDW training session on the full height DW… Stella was great, only one leap, a couple high, and some beauties--running low and fast and deep into the contact. I was so proud of her.
Then I came home to get your suggestion to go ahead and raise it… so by the time I got it raised it was dusk and our session in the second video goes until you really can’t see her anymore, though it was NOT actually that dark, I stopped before we couldn’t see what we were doing!!!!!
last night and also a couple times in the class, Stella broke into a trot at the middle… so my question is: what now is my priority? am I wanting to reward speed or good hits? and how is best to reward speed separate from hits? I’ve been trying to tell her Good Girl! when I see her really running… but I don’t want to get her all confused… because sometimes she will give me good running and then a high hit… or so so running and a good lower hit????
I am still working with jumps at one end and tunnel at the other… the tunnel is straight right now to keep her speed going in off the DW and also coming out onto the DW… suggestions?
thanks and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!
That’s very good to hear that she was doing good even on another DW in another environment! That’s great that she generalized it so well! You should be marking&rewarding the hits and try to get the speed by keeping sessions short and fun, by you running hard and with exciting toys… Maybe you could try dragging that tug toy ahead again some to see if she runs more for that? Or try that broken pig again? -- Just to do something different, maybe it will give you more speed.
One of our three sessions on full height today… funny how she’s pretty consistently running in six strides now… no fivers today… I think what’s different is, for five strides she takes one getting on the DW and her second lands over the first apex… and maybe she is just getting used to the steeper incline? Do you think I should try to push her for the five again? Or just let her get more confident at the new height?
I’ll keep working with other fun toys
Well, faster is always better 🙂 so definitely keep working on her speed, but as long as she is hitting nicely, also 6 strides are o.k.