And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Silvia,
This was the worst session I’ve had. No hits on the A-Frame and one Jackpot on the Dog Walk. We’re going down hill fast!
I downloaded the cik&cip DVD. Maybe I should quit the running contacts for a while and just work on the tricks.
Yes, let’s give him a break for some days and then try again, maybe with somewhat lower A-frame to see if it gives us more hind feet separation. I hope his DW gets better too, if not, I would go to the last successful set up -- was that a set up on a hill or you got some good ones on flat too? OR, you could play some with different starting points (setting him on different spots of a DW or starting him with different approaches) and see if you can find one that would give you more consistent hits.
I think Spur is figuring out his work going into nothing! 😀 We took it on the road last night. He still has some strange striding/footwork at times, but I think it’s better. Definitely better success rate. Maybe not quite as fast as at home, but not bad. 1, 3, 5 are going into nothing
1 -- BIG Jackpot
2 -- no reward (started with a 90 degree approach), high hit, no hind seperation.
3 -- small reward
4 -- Jackpot (another 90 degree approach)
5 -- Jackpot
6 -- BIG Jackpot -- softer approach
As with all things “Spur”, we still have more work to do, but I think this is looking better. He sure enjoys the work!
Yeap, that sure looks great -- but as you say, he is just enough slower as at home that he can again fit in full 3 hits.
That is true, however he has a couple of times missed at trials where he isn’t as fast and still tries for those two hits and leaps. That’s why I think I need to get him understanding that no matter what he needs to run through the bottom. Even on this video some of the hits look high and just a bit leapy to me. And even a little uncomfortable? I have never been very picky with him before, because he is so soft and needed to be rewarded so I accepted some of those higher, kind of leapy hits, but I think now he is OK about me being more picky?
The good thing is he sure loves to work now!!! He is very happy when we decide to train his dog walk!! 😀 It may be one of his favorite things to train!! LOL!! Mine, too!! 😀
I think that what makes him look leapy is that there is often not much room left for that third hit and he needs to shorten it some. So I would still reward those as long as he is nicely in. But yes, you can stop rewarding really high hits.
Hello Silvia,
here is our latest work:
A-frame here:
I started on full height to see what it will do with Kiwi and I mean it´s okay. It is the first time ever she was doing the A-Frame.
And our latest work on low dogwalk -- it is on 110 cm and she is doing very well when we are alone in the traing center. If there are other dogs and people, she does not as well, but when I lowered the criteria it turned better -- she may needs more experience and to be sure to do it well when the surrounding is really disturbing….
Vendula and Kiwi
Vendula, Looks great to me—just curious… what or how are you rewarding?
--Dinah
Hello,
I reward as Silvia told me 🙂
I have a ball after the DW ( after a jump or tunnel) and because Kiwi loves catching the ball I send her for the ball, she brings it to me and then I let her catch another ball I have in my hand.
misses or almost misses are not rewarded
if she hits with front paws or hind paws but high I just throw once
if she hits well (deep in the contact) I do a party throwing balls :)))
But we are also following up the motion she does -- if she is not jumping or so…
I think she understand well.
Vendula
Thanks Vendula! I haven’t been able to get to the static ball stage yet because Stella has had speed issues and still needs to be chasing… I was curious because Kiwi is running so nicely and evenly and straight ahead regardless if you are in front, with, or behind… we use a soccerball, its Stella’s favorite… it will be interesting when we get to your stage to be playing with a *party* of soccerballs (how will I carry more than one)
thanks again for elaborating,
Dinah
Dinah, I don´t know what the soccerball is 🙂 It is the ball for european football??
But when I started to not throwing the ball (because I throwed it before) I trained the will to get the static ball separately -- in the garden or during the walks… I just held Kiwi´s collar then throwed the ball and tried to motivate Kiwi to watch where the ball is -- then I let her go for the ball, what is good also is the one-two-three-go game 🙂 It was good preparation for the static toy after the DW 🙂
For the party you will need a big big pocket :)))))))
Thanks for your nice words I am very happy to do the RC :))) I hope it will really work also on competitions,
Vendula
Yes Vendula-- the soccerball IS the european football!!! and thankyou I will try your static ball preparations!!! It is like the 2o2o game Silvia had us play in Foundations, but I never thought of using the soccer ball for that. Or breaking it down as a DW exercise away from the DW. I think I will try that with the soccerball and -lots of different toys now to see also if I can get her as excited about some other smaller toys : ) And I can do that this week while we are on a break from RDW training!!!
Dinah
Yeap, I think there won’t be any problems with an A-frame, you can start using it in sequences. I would also put a DW to the full height now so that you can train on other DWs too. Keep selecting for nice, low hits. You can also fade a static toy now and start rewarding by throwing a toy after that jump/tunnel. Not sure why more people/dogs make it worse… Maybe she runs even more, goes for 4 strides and is too high? Maybe try ugly, less speedy approaches in those situations?
No I mean the problem is that when there are other people and dogs she slows down-she doesn’t run in full extension,no hind feet separation,she gives her head up at the end of the dw,she focuses on something different not on the jump after the dw. The only thing that helps is when I let the ball just after the dw-so no jump or tunnel after-only the dw and the ball about 7 meters away-then she focuses well on the ball and she runs nicely… I think it will turn better with practising more often when other dogs and people are present… Do you agree or have another idea? Thanks:-)
Ah, o.k. And yes, sure, definitely use just a ball if that helps you get good hits also with people around. If she is that sensitive, you’ll need to go to different places a lot to get her used to new environments.
Silvia,
I’m not training on the DW this week (or next week) just thinking about it… I’ve been setting the obstacles (jump and tunnel) at either end… I’ve been setting them pretty far out from the DW… But maybe I should try a tunnel at both ends, maybe I should bring them closer to the DW ramp to have her thinking low running and not about jumping as she’s coming off the contacts… but then if that closer location works, is it something else to fade??
Ok, I guess my question is how close should I be putting the obstacles at either end?
Dinah
Put the obstacles at the normal distance you would see in a trial. Many people tried using tunnels as you suggest but just as hoops: it doesn’t work, so I don’t recommend it no.
ok good—thats what I thought!!
Hello Sylvia
We are now running a full height A frame. They run to a tunnel and thrown toy or MM after tunnel. The pups are just learning to jump so I haven’t had them run to a jump yet. I have had a couple of problems recently. One is that, with excitement (ball, me running way ahead) Juice will still fly over the apex. If I give her a more controlled approach she is pretty good about not flying, and usually has a good hit. Her “controlled” approach still has good speed but I am just being careful to keep the enthusiasm not at peak. The other problem is that both pups have occasionally offered a stopped 2o2o. I am training them to do 2o2o on the teeter and on the DW. When I had both of them offer that it was when they were running to nothing and had trained the 2o2o that day also. I decided not to work on the 2o2o for a while until the running AF is more solid. Any suggestions there?
Each of the pups will have a high hit or a miss occasionally but overall are pretty accurate. I just don’t reward the misses and they usually fix it. I understand from other comments that I should reward the high hits, correct? Thanks for your help.
Here are yesterday’s videos.
Juice
Snitch
Yeap, definitely use the approaches that give you the best running and not too much flying for now. And yes, high hits are o.k. for A-frame -- well, higher as 2 inches in is somewhat too high… I think you can keep working on 2on2off on a DW and a teeter, but maybe not on the same day. That way or another, I think the confusion will go away soon.
Another question that I am confused about. I am starting to move the tunnel at the end of the AF gradually to the side as you suggested with jumps for the DW. They are running straight down right now but as the tunnel is moved more and more they will start to run at an angle down the AF I would assume. At what point is the “hit” a fail? Should I only reward straight down? If they hit in yellow but still are running off the side is that a success or a fail? I am guessing that at some point they will start running off the side to short cut their route to the tunnel and would like to know how to deal with that. Thanks.
I actually don’t do it with the A-frame at all. Turns off the A-frame are so easy that I don’t train it at all, I just do straight exits first and as soon as those are o.k. start including it in normal sequences.
Hi Silvia,
Congradulations to you and your dogs for your outstanding performances at Worlds!
Here is the most recent video clips of Cara -- I have a tunnel after both the dog walk and aframe for both my girls.
Here is Chloe’s video:
Looking forward to your feedback.
lisa
I was just wondering where you were! Anyway, I would continue to work the DW like that. Chloe is doing really well and Cara is still somewhat leapy, but it’s slowly getting better, so I would just keep working like that. You could also try running with her more, right from the start, maybe that will make her more in a hurry and leap less. But the A-frame I don’t like so much, they seem uncomfortable with a slope down and are slowing down instead of speeding up on the way down. It looks to me that you need to put it significantly lower (at least half lower, maybe even more) and add height more gradually to keep them running vs. stopping.
Thank you for the feedback! We’ll keep working and I’ll lower the A frame.
I have a question -- since I’m working on getting Chloe and Cara comfortable driving down the ramp would it be okay for awhile to use the tea cup A frame that has a ramp of 9 ‘ until I see proper striding going down it?
Thank you
lisa
Sure, you can start with that, but do lower that one too.
Hi Silvia
Here is our latest work on the DW. We are on full heights and the jumps straight ahead is doing fine. Our DW is 3,6 m. and at practice it is 4,0 m. and he is making great adjustings and getting deep contacts even there:-))At first when I started to move the jump a little to the side, he began to make really high hits and also collecting a bit. I put the bar on the ground and then slowly raised it, and that helped. On this vid it’s his first attempt with the jump moved almost 2 meters to the left, and the jump is about 30 cm. high. He is not getting the really deep contacts, but he is mostly landing in the middle, so I actually think it’s okay. We also worked a lot with the striding regulators, and it works great. Now he only needs it, when he comes on a straight approach with high speed.
Here is also a video with cik/cap training.
Looks and sounds great! At this point, you can start including DW in normal sequences and real course situations. But still do lots of straight exits too to practice deep hits. Of course, what he is showing is definitely deep enough for curves. Great job! Very tight with cik&caps-s too!!!
Here is my video for Rella any feedback would be great!
Would be good to know some more… I’m somewhat confused as she is so inconsistent in her running… We sure see some beautiful hits, but she is often not running full speed, has almost no reach forward, is very airy etc. Did you change something from one repetition to another? Do you see nay kind of a pattern that we can’t see from the video? For how long is she running the low DW and on which height did you started her? How are you rewarding her?
The same on A-frame. It’s very strange that her hind feet hit higher as her front feet… I would spend some time on that and only try A-frame again when you get consistent reach forward and hind feet separation on DW -- and also then, I would start with a lower A-frame, she is doing some crazy stuff over that apex.
I will be able to advise more when I have some more info, but my first impression is that there were many steps being skipped… I would still be running her on just the DW -- MUCH lower as that and would still be rewarding by throwing a toy in advance to get better speed, less air and more consistent striding. At the moment her successful rate is too low to continue like that, we do need more running first.