Time for a new lesson! And a "catch-up break" 🙂 With every class, we do a two weeks break for those who got somewhat behind to catch up and for those who are on schedule to give a dog a little break from plank running. I'll be answering your questions till Tuesday 4th October night and then again after 14 days, from 19th October morning again. Please don't post your videos during this time, I won't be reviewing old videos as things can change in 2 weeks.
If you're behind, make sure to complete lesson 1 before you start with lesson 2 and that you complete lesson 2 before starting with lesson 3 - you can't jump steps, there is a reason I'm giving you this assignments in the order that I do!
1. switch to a static toy, position it at the bar of a jump with a bar on the ground. The jump should be straight forward after the plank, about 7m away. The goal is the dog starts to look for a jump, knowing the toy is there. Occasionally, still throw a toy in advance, but mostly, have it there. When the dog already knows where it is, put a jump bar very low and a toy behind it (close after it, but far enough that the dog can land normally). Keep it there long enough that the dog is expecting it there. When you see the dog is pulling well towards the jump, knowing the toy is there, stop leaving the toy there and throw it after you click the contact, so that the dog gets it after the jump.
The goal is to switch from a static toy that is there as a target for the dog to focus him forward to a jump as a target to focus the dog forward and a toy as a reward we throw AFTER we see the contact is good. You need to be pretty quick as you don't want the dog to wait for the toy - so quick that I sometimes throw it before I realize the contact was actually not THAT good - but it gets easier 🙂 I guess this step will finally make everybody worried about rewarding leaps happy as now, you can withhold the toy for unsuccessful tries. HOWEVER, make sure the dog successful rate is high for this step as otherwise, you can loose the speed and get the dog checking back with you if you're throwing a toy or not. The same can be dangerous if you're late throwing a toy.
This is usually an easy step for BCs who will run full speed in anticipation of the toy, but can be a very hard one for some other dogs. For Le, that was the hardest step. She was running beautifully if the ball was still rolling when she saw it, but if I threw it that early that it was already static when she saw it (or when I positioned it there), then she didn't extend well enough. What finally worked was going few steps back with height, exciting her a lot with a toy, throwing it at the jump and sending her quickly to the dog-walk. That made her striding good enough to continue long enough to have her look for the jump and then I quickly switched to a toy, thrown after the contact is done, over the jump. That temporary caused some checking back with me, so I needed to go back to a stationary toy again, but then she finally got the idea to keep running full speed towards the jump/tunnel and trust the toy will appear then 🙂 and that again gave me the beautiful striding I had before trying to get rid of a toy, thrown in advance.
If the transition to a stationary toy is too hard, another way to try to avoid that phase is to pretend you are throwing a toy in advance, but then only throw it after. OR, using a tunnel as a way to focus the dog forward and throw it after the tunnel - works great with tunnel crazy dogs, didn't work with Le. Try and report back if you have problems.
2. keep adding height. If you have an option, it's also time to try the real thing. If you don't ahve a low DW you can use a normal dog-walk with additional plank at the end. Start with down ramp only and then slowly put the dog further&further back until you run the whole dog-walk.
When trying this or any other, new variable, don't vary other variables - make it as easy for the dog to succeed as possible. You can also lower a criteria somewhat. Normally, your criteria about hits by now should already be to be deeply in the contact - but temporary, you can click for good tries on a limit too, IF hind feet are well separated and the dog is not leaping.
3. new trick: have a dog back up on something very low and preferably soft first (folded blanket, low pillow) - then slowly add height, so that they need to pick up their hind legs higher&higher. At the same time, you can teach a "pee trick": click for lifting the leg, searching for an object, before they touch it. Make sure to try to get leg lifts on both sides - they usually prefer to go up with the same leg, so try to sometimes position them somewhat diagonally in front of an object so that their preferred leg is too far from it to start with that one. Also try climbing stairs backwards and cavaletti backwards.
Have fun! I'll be back to answering on 19th October and will publish new assignments on 7th November, so you'll again have 3 weeks to work on this assignment in class form - and 2 additional weeks to either catch up or take a break 🙂
Hi Silvia,
good luck at the World. I’ll be in the tribunes 🙂 And our fingers are crossed !
Thanks! Too bad we couldn’t chat some, by the time I realized where I know you from, you already disappeared in the crowd…
Hi Silvia,
I was also in the tribune, but did not want to disturb you. I’m shy 🙂
Oh, you should stop by, I had plenty of time during small class 🙂
I didn’t want to disturb you 🙂 IT WAS FANTASTIC, congratulations !
Silvia, forgot to say! Good luck at the WC! You are the BEST!
Hi Silvia,
During the previous sessions on different heights, Daly managed to reach 90 to 100% success with 5 strides and touching the contact zone consistently with rear legs in the higher 1/3 of the contact zone (one leg on the line and the other leg a few inches lower). Recently she started using more and more strides so I started counting them in order to make sure that the performances with more strides were paid less.
On octobre 3rd we reached full height halfway through our session.
On octobre 4th we started the session at full height for the first time. I posted this session below.
The october 4th session made me wonder whether I should jackpot 6 and 7 strides performances with a low contact zone (and even front feet). I think she could be faster and lower if she lenghten her 3rd and 5th strides. But then again, she has to know that it is more about contact zone performance that number of strides..
In conclusion, I am not sure whether or not I should jackpot the 6 and 7 strides ‘low contact zone’ performances. What do you think ?
Here is the october 5th session so that you can see the progression. She seems to have adapted to the new height and she is again giving me consistent 5 strides with rear legs in upper third of the contact zone. I am trying to be more and more carefull about jackpoting slightly lower performances.
Also, you can see my boyfriend throwing a ball a lot of the times but he is faking most of the time. On october 5th he really threw the ball about 3 times out of 21. Sometimes he doesn’t even make the throwing motion.
Here is how I judged the october 5th session :
1 : 5 strides, very high , 5 kibble
2 : 5 strides, higher than previous one , 3 kibble
3 : 5 strides, high , jackpot
4 : 5 strides, high , jackpot or 15 kibble not sure…
5 : 5 strides, high , jackpot
6 : 5 strides, very very high , 5 kibble
7 : 5 strides, high , jackpot
8 : 5 strides, high , 15 kibble
9 : 5 strides, high lower than previous one , jackpot
10 : 5 strides, high , 15 kibble
11 : 6 strides, high , 2 kibble
12 : 5 strides, high , 20 kibble
13 : 5 strides, high lower than previous one , jackpot
14 : 5 strides, high lower than previous one , jackpot
15 : 5 strides, high , 20 kibble
16 : 5 strides, high , 20 kibble
17 : 5 strides, high , jackpot
18 : 5 strides, high lower than previous one , jackpot
19 : 5 strides, high , 20 kibble
20 : 5 strides, very very high , 5 kibble
21 : 5 strides, high , jackpot
Looking forward to your comments :-),
Claire
Hi Silvia,
I have put my running contact trainning almost on stand-by since I poste my videos above. Could you look at it since my questions are still the same today ? I have had only 3 RC session since what I posted above and in the last one I noticed on the video that her last stride is now with both back feet together ! I must have jackpotted some by mistake. It seems that the minute I pay attention on one thing (like number of strides), I loose the capacity to notice other things,
From now on I I will try to check :
1) the number of strides
2) the rear feet seperation
3) how low in the contact zone she gets
What do I pay if she gives me very low with no rear feet seperation ?
Thanks for all the help you can give,
Claire
Also : Congratulation !! I knew you would do great again, your training advice has been the best I ever got and I checked every book and dvd I could get my hands on so I should know .. Plus obviously you are in great shape ! Keep up the GREAT work ! I don’t think I can ever stop saying thanks to you because your techniques have unblocked so much potential for me !
Thanks 🙂
Oh, yes, it’s normal that you can’t see it all! I never watch for number of strides when training, but will check it here and there on video and can then mostly guess it based on how they came to DW and where they hit -- I can even hear it with BI 🙂 But to decide on how to reward, I only look for deepness and hind feet separation and I don’t really care about number of strides… I actually think it’s good the dog can get to a contact with different stridings. I would jackpot very low hit with no separation, but wouldn’t reward high hit with no separation. Also, you can try some “ugly” approaches now to see if it gives you 6 strides and deeper hits. If not, just keep working like this and see if you can get her deeper by selecting for deepness.
When I train in a new place, she walks or trotts instead of running for the first 3 or 4 tries and always gets deep into the contact zone that way but I don’t pay anything for that.. is that ok ?
Her deepest hits have always been the ones when she puts on the breaks and adds 1 to 4 strides to her performance.
At home, she will add 1 little non-running strides on the horizontal plank and 1 to 2 little non-running strides on the downwalk and usually be much deeper that way. But also much slower… So I am always torn about how much to pay
Away from home, she adds systematically 1 stride on the upramp, 1 or 2 on the horizontal plank and 1 to 2 on the downramp. It all adds up to a much slower performance. But she is usually much deeper with all theses strides.
How much slowing down would you accept if you were me ?
Would you jackpot those deep contact with 2 to 5 extra strides ?
How many little non running strides would you accept if you were me ?
Another question : the outdoor agility season is pretty much over up here so I will be able to practice my running contact indoors only 3 sundays morning per month to the next 6 months.
But maybe I should just stop during the winter and restart from the ground up next spring. Next spring I will surely be better at checking rear feet seperation and everything else so she will be rewarded daily for what I really want out of her. What do you think ?
Maybe if I aim for a 6 stride rather than a 5 stride performance, I might be able to get a high sucess rate with deep and fast performances. I might just have to give up on the extra fast 5 stride performance.
I am worried that her 4th stride landing on the down ramp is too hard on her body considering she is doing it 20 times a day. What do you think ?
May be with stride regulators I could lengthen her 1st, 3rd and 5th stride, that way she could be deep with 5 strides and do a 4th stride which would be easier on her body. But that would probably be too much work on my part and I risk confusing her in the process by aiming too high…
I know I think too much but it is such an interesting subject..
I think there is no way she can do the same striding in each situation (different approaches and exits, rubber DW vs. slippery DW on a rainy day, maybe even different lengths if you every come to Europe etc.), so I definitely wouldn’t decide for stride regulators, but would let her choose her striding and definitely practice different stridings. As long as she understands it’s about taking the last stride from the very end she will be fine and there will be no need to do so many repetitions then. I think you’re close enough now to just continue until you can, then still do it during winter when you can and just wait and see how it goes, I don’t think you need to retrain it from zero.
Ah, o.k., I didn’t realize she is so sensitive to react that strongly to a new DW! I think that in order to give her more confidence, I would actually give he a small reward for an effort if she is in, even if she is slow. I don’t think it will teach her go slow, speed is more fun for dogs too, but obviously, she lacks confidence for that on new DWs. But it is surprising she does it at home too… Do you know the pattern, when and why does she go in that slow mode? If you knew the pattern, you could avoid it and that would be the best thing to do I think… Also, would she go fast(er) on new DWs if you went back to throwing a ball in advance on those?
Hi Silvia,
Here is our practice from october 31st. I posted it in HD so you should be able to slow down and see well the parts that you want using Window’s media player.
As you can see my shelty is pretty uneven in her performances. Probably the result of me confusing her by clicking wrong during the first 3 months.
We have a vitamin bottle filled with ground ham and hot dog pieces 20 feet past the end of the DW, the jackpots are made of a few teaspoons of that mix.
My boyfriend throws another vitamin bottle full of kibble (instead of a ball). I try to hide behind the A-Frame because she often looks sideways at me (even with a tire or a tunnel after the end of the DW).
I am the one who clicks and runs over to open either the kibble or the jackpot vitamin bottle depending on her performance.
I think she is generally lower than last week but she still misses a lot. She is giving me more and more ‘1 front foot in the yellow + 2 rear feet in the yellow but close together’, probably because she slows down to add a stride before the yellow. I guess slowing down implies getting rear feet closer together ? I pay her only 1 or 2 kibble for these, is that OK ?
When We throw a ball, if she has a good performance, she will stop running after the ball when she hears me saying ‘yooohooo’ because she knows very well a jackpot is coming even if I have to go get the ball with her first..And the jackpot makes the ball completely unimportant. So her focus on the ball is weak in the dogwalk practice contexte..
I think maybe she often misses completely after the bigger jackpots because they make her too exited to think as straight as usual.. ? This is almost the first practice where she did not miss her first 2 performances, I was thinking that she was maybe too exited about going outside to do RC practice in order to use her head for those first two performances of each practice.. ?
Modifier cette vidéo
Cool, some of those hits are really beautiful! But I would reward somewhat differently, I preferred 26-27-28 extended running over airy 4-6-7-29 style of running. Even if he was a little deeper with 4-6-7-29, the style of the other three was so much better that I would reward it more. I think hits like this will only get better with more excitement -- when I can understand well why hits like 4-6-7-29 fall apart with more excitement… -- That’s why more natural way of running is preferred. Hind feet together are a sign of slowing down yes and of course it happens she sometimes needs to shorten a stride and have hind feet together, but on cases where hind feet are close and high it would be better she didn’t shorten that stride so much 🙂 It was o.k. to reward 25 yes, I liked it better as 4-6-7-29. So is she running after the ball or to the jackpot bottle? If she doesn’t care about the ball, you can try without and a bottle after the tunnel and then fade something there and simply reward from hand after the tunnel.
Silvia, BIG CONGRATULATIONS to your runs wit both Bu and La on the WC in Lievin. And another one to the bronze medal you won!!!!
Thanks! 🙂
Hi Silvia
Here are the pictures I emailed you about. The first one shows how the dog walk is for our training, and there are a few jumps nearby. The second shows the turn posts + distance available at the end of the ramp. I’m not sure if the permanent posts are too leading? maybe I could use something moveable instead on the ground surface? As I mentioned I can’t move anything stuck in the ground (jumps, poles) after a few days as it will freeze in so I should choose this setup now.
After watching everyone else’s videos I was a bit worried about continuing to use the flat part of the dog walk + only one ramp. The reason I am doing it this way is that I cannot fit the whole dog wallk in my area and still have room for the dog to then run to a jump etc. At the moment, I am still only sending her from the top of the ramp anyway. I suppose with my dog it does not matter where she starts or if we do all of the training like this, as she need not set her stride like large dogs.
What do you think? The distance between the ramp and the jump is 5 m
Second pic
In case you are wondering why we don’t use outside the fence:
1. busy road next door
2. roaming hunting dogs next door
Grand plan -- fence whole yard 🙂
Hi Silvia, BIG Congrats on WC…watched the videos on your Facebook, you are truly an inspiration!! We will be taking the next few days off our RC Training for a few days away with my hubby…so wanted to update where we are with our RC training for your review when class resumes. This is the first time for my post under Lesson 3.
We have made what I think is an amazing gain in our Running Contacts 🙂 After struggling a few sessions with Bella continuing to do 3 strides with leap over contact about 50% of the time, I decided to try increasing DW heights and it really did the trick for Bella!! We are now at “my” DW full height, which is 42″ to the top surface(AKC is 48″ but with current base I can’t get any higher). I am sending her to Tunnel @ 18ft before DW to Jump @ 21 ft after DW. We are also working with changing the toy placement as you described for lesson 3. Bella has good forward focus to the jump. For the most part, I am now only throwing the ball after I mark good contact hit with click & “yes”….Bella retrieves the ball to me…if it’s a jackpot hit, we then play tug. She really seems to understand “when” the tug is going to happen.
Here is our training session from today. We hadn’t been able to practice for a couple days, so she started off with a few missed contacts(3 previous sessions she was 85-90%, with only about 1/3 of those being deeper). She looks much more comfortable with her striding & speed with the full height DW and is getting more deeper hits as we go along…..
What do you think? Continue like this or other challenges? Oh, I also have varied my position and it doesn’t seem to affect her…but find where I am in todays video is about the best for me to watch her & the contact zone. I will check back for your response when we are back on Thurs night before we do any further training sessions to see what you think.
Well, if the trend is good, definitely keep working like this. Don’t change too many variables just yet though and instead focus on getting more nice hits first. So if a thrown toy helps, you can still do that for now: whatever helps her get nicely in. The major focus now should be to get as many hits as 8, 15 and 16 as possible. The good thing about 16 is also that she is really trying and adjusting her stride to be in: definitely something you want to jackpot!
We have had 4 sessions since last posting, and am very happy to say that Bella is really getting better with the deeper hits. Today I broke up our training into two 10 run sessions…both were about the same, so here is just the 2nd session. the only variable I’ve been altering is the timing of the ball throw, and then bigger jackpots for deeper hits. Getting easier to recognize the deeper hits now too 🙂 It “feels” like we are ready for some other challenges? Also, was wondering how “deep” is it best for her to be? I see she is really changing up her stride, is this ok?
Nancy, that’s GREAT! She is definitely adjusting her stride to get in, that’s a very good sign that means she got the idea! That was really fast, what a smart girl! Should be easy from now on, she basically just needs some experience to always succeed in her tries 🙂 You can definitely throw some more challenges in now, like different approaches and also switching to a static toy. Her hits are really nice now, 2 for example would be a perfect hit: it doesn’t get any deeper than that 🙂 9 and 10 are beautiful too, of course.
Thanks Silvia, we are having so much fun with this…and I am thrilled that the RC work is paying off in ALL areas of our agility too 🙂 Couple questions for you… First on the “static toy” suggestion: We did work the “static toy” as describe in lesson 3 over a few`sessions, Bella has great forward focus “most” of the time, so right now I throw the ball while she’s on the DW on just the first run of our session or if we had a few misses or near misses in a row…but for the most part, and almost all of last few sessions I only threw the ball after I click & verbal mark the deeper hits (unless otherwise noted on the video). I may be a little late in throwing after the click/yes…but do get the ball far enough & quick enough out ahead of her that she continues going straight & not turning back to me to look for the throw. So do I still go back to “static toy”? oh also, when we were doing the static toy, I did notice she lost some of her speed & drive, but the forward focus was still good.
2nd question is about “different approaches”…can you give me some examples/suggestions? Right now we have only been doing a send to U-Tunnel @18ft before DW….this has been the “best” distance that gave us the speed & hits.
Right, I’m sorry, I actually do know you’re already rewarding like this, it was just too late to focus when I was posting my previous reply, but I was so happy about Bella’s performance that I had to comment 🙂 But yes, sure, no need for a static toy and perfectly o.k. to still throw a toy in advance here and there!
For different approaches, the best is to use a jump and then just move it all around, just as if you were training weave poles entries: starting with easier, almost straight ones, then going for more extreme ones, including those when you send directly on DW from standing in the middle (I do use a pole or stanchion for those though to make sure they don’t enter from the side).
After today’s session I think it’s best to let you see where things are at as I’m a little unsure of whether to continue as we are. After your above post about starting with different approaches, I replaced the tunnel with a jump straight ahead of DW and about the same distance that tunnel was (18 ft). I kept this setup entire 1st session and we did 20 runs with 5 no hits/no rewards…6 high hits/sm jackpots and 9 PERFECT hits with BIG Jackpots. Next day, first time same set up was again PERFECT….moved jump over 1 ft with another PERFECT hit..moved jump over 2 ft for rest of session for 18 runs with only 2 Perfect, 8 high hits and 7 no hits. In both of these days the “no hits” were not really leaps, but more like she was struggling with her striding which made her leave the down side slightly above the contact.
And then there is today…Because she had less Perfect hits with the jump moved 2ft off center last session, I decided today to go back to straight approach over jump to build up her confidence…but it didn’t go as well. A couple of the runs she even did some funky stuff, like going back to 4OTF. She did seem to get more comfortable toward the end of the session thou.
Wondering what your thoughts are…it was going so well when we were using the tunnel sends before the DW…and did go well on the first session changing it out to the straight on Jump. It did seem like she had more speed to the DW when coming from tunnel vs jump. Could today just be an “off” day and I should give it another short session try? Or maybe do a half session with the tunnel sends again, and when we get a few of the deep hits switch out the tunnel to straight on jump? Also, I hadn’t been throwing the ball unless it was at least a hit, maybe she needs the ball being thrown regardless a little while longer? Or because we were getting such nice speed out of the tunnel, could we use the tunnel & just keep moving that to get the different approaches like you described? Ok, I’ll stop there…my mind is whirling trying to come up with ideas to help her get those deep hits back.
To me, it looks like she is extending somewhat less and then with all the unsuccessful tries, she is getting unsure and extends even less, even tries to revert back to old behaviour etc. Confidence is really important part of RC: when things go wrong, go back to what worked, so yes, do use a tunnel for the next session again and maybe indeed start moving the tunnel instead, then try straight jump again etc. -- and go back whenever you get too many misses in a row. For new, difficult situations, you can definitely still throw a ball in advance too yes if that helps her!
Thanks…I feel good about going back to tunnel with straight exit to DW for a bit then work with offsetting the tunnel.. We’ll only have today & tomorrow for RC practice, will be away for trial till Monday. Fingers crossed we can get in a couple good sessions before then so Bella will have some of her confidence back before the trial 🙂
Yeap, definitely! Good luck for the trial!
It took a few sessions going back to tunnel -dw-jump to get back consistency with good stride & hits since our last post. Today our set up is: send to tunnel to half-height bar jump to DW to half-height bar jump….with both jumps being in straight line with DW/ Bella’s getting more consistent with the deeper hits. Because of camera setup, I had mostly kept Bella on my left, but noticed that it takes a few runs for her to get the same striding/hits when she is on my right…so we will work on that more with each session too. Do you think I’m ok to continue to work with this same set up but start moving the tunnel/jump approach angle as we previously talked? I was kind of surprised that it took several sessions, which required some back chaining from mid DW to get the good runs back…so I think I need to pay attention to changing approaches slowly? Here is today’s session:
The reason I decided to use tunnel & jump was to keep her speed up and also make it more “trial” like for her,…and she could use all the “drivey” practice we can get! She stresses somewhat once in the trial ring and pokes or gets nervous by ring crew/spectators and/or judge…she’s doing much better with all this since we started this RC class thou 🙂
As for our trial…we only got in one day as Big Nor’easter cancelled 2nd day…Bella earned her AXJ title in our Jumpers, but NQ’d in Standard when she popped off teetor at the pivot …again nervous about ring crew sitting close by, also missed the AF contact…but got her DW 🙂 although it looked NOTHING like what she does at home…
Good to see the nice contacts are back! 🙂 Be extra careful with changing things now, maybe you could even keep it straight for now and instead change how it looks like, for example turn that jump for 90 degrees first, then try a wrap etc. -- just to make her see that things might look different, but you want the same thing on DW. Just try and see and if things go bad again, go back to her preffered set up. Meantime, also work on her confidence at trails as she will definitely need it to be able to run her DW as she does in training. It would also be good if you could go to some other places to practice, on her favourite set up of course, but new DW.
Hi Silvia! Snowy weather put a hold on our RC training shortly after my last post and most of our agility ring here at home is packed away for the winter 🙁 …unfortunately I do not have access to an indoor DW 🙁 Prior to putting the DW/AF away, I set up small sequences with them so we could practice for upcoming trials. I kept Bella with straight exits, as I felt I could probably somewhat continue that at trials regardless of how the courses were set…but did play some with approaches & angles with very good success rate!! Here is a couple video clips from the last session that I videoed…as well as just the DW portions from our last 3 Standard runs over the past 2 weeks so you could see the difference from home vs trial setting.
Bella & I have 2 more trial weekends this month and then we’ll be taking a few months break from agility training. I hope to resume when we are in FL for 6 weeks, maybe even enter a trial in the warm FL sunshine while we are there 🙂 We won’t be able to set up our DW here at home again until probably mid-May. I have made note of all the RC II lessons for future reference, but what would be your suggestion for Bella & I for when we are able to resume the RC training again here at home next Spring? I saw you mention something in a post about the possibility of “been to classes before & have a question” class…. I for one think that would be AWESOME!!
Bella’s enthusiasm, speed & drive in a trial is still not like what she does here at home (both on the DW & throughout all of the course)… however since starting the RC II class as well as distraction work & developing fun trial “routines”, Bella HAS gained confidence and I can see things beginning to improve at trials 🙂 Thank you so much for all your input & guidance…and thank you to my fellow classmates for joining & sharing their videos/training…I have learned alot by following along with everyone. What a GREAT learning opportunity! Thank you again Silvia!!
Thanks for an update on Bella, I was wondering how you two are doing now and am thrilled to see how well she is running at home and am sure you’ll soon get it in trials too! When you get back to training again, just slowly keep adding difficulties, especially somewhat angled exits. You can teach real turns separately, maybe you could even do some of that during winter if you have an appropriate place, like Ania is working on it in her basement. Wishing you a short winter! Was nice meeting you&Bella!
Yes, that’s a great idea! I can still get to a DW down ramp & our table….will set up in the basement 🙂 I will drop you a note later in the Spring to update you on our return to RC training. Thank you again Silvia for this long distance class & the opportunity to train with you..it’s been a blast! 🙂
Thanks! Happy winter training!
Hi Silvia,
Firstly well done for your fabulous results at the worlds- I watched it on livestream. A special well done with La- what a superstar dog!
Here is the latest clip of our DW training when you start reviewing again tommorow.
First Shim-straight- a bit high but OK (although she did leap off her DW on the straight approach at the trial on the weekend!)
Then Shim turns- L and R. A few questions about these. Firstly she is still slowing dow quite a lot- is this Ok? I am not sure exactly what I should be rewarding for turns- at the moment I am rewarding pretty much anything low in the contact. I know the legs dont have to be separate, and front leg hits are preferred, although I am not getting a lot of these. When I back chain them I sometimes get front leg hits and when we practice on the 1/2 DW in my garden (1/2 height and length), I get front leg hits often. In fact in the garden she will run all the way down to the bottom and turn 180 degrees back beautifully-frustrating it is not generalising to the full DW
After Shim’s turns there is Ink running straight and turning-not too bad I thought.
Finally, I didnt slow them down because I thought you would be able to see, please let me know if not.
Thanks
Kriszty
Yeap, it looks really good, they really seem to understand their job and try hard to be in. That’s why it’s surprising it’s not so good at trials… Do you know why? Are DWs different lengths? Is she running faster or slower in trials as in trainings? Also, do you make sure to sometimes use the DW just as you would in trials, meaning having it in sequences, without the target after the jump and also without rewarding it? Also, don’t only do 180 degrees approaches in training: straight vs. 180 degree approach require so very different striding that you definitely need to practice both.. Try all other approaches too.
The turns look pretty good to me as they are, but you can also try to backchain it on full DW and see what that gives you. Keep rewarding anything that is nicely in and jackpot the best ones. The speed looks good to me.
Thanks. No not really sure why she lept in the last trial, the equip wasnt very good (slippery), but it wasnt wet..dont know. Here is the vid of the run- unfortunately it was taken by someone who doesnt normally video, and it is fairly terrible (she is a judge and I think has tried to vid like she does judge- focusing on the contact to see if the dog is in but you cant see much of what the dog is doing..haha). But she put her back feet together and lept (straight approach). The AF was good.
Yes with Shim she does sequences at training now (although it is very hard not to stop and reward the good ones so she gets a lot of DW rewards!)
Ok with the turns then I will still keep rewarding the low ones, even with hind feet together.
Kriszty
Yeap, you even got some hind feet separation on A-frame! DW approach seems good yes, not sure what went wrong… Would be good if you could sometimes train DW in new environments too, some dogs really need that. Also, when you see a good contact in a trial, you can mark it with an excited “yes!” or something -- it can really help with their understanding that you want the same thing in trails too.
Thanks will do.
Hi Silvia
As per your advice, went and found a different DW, in a training ring at a trial. The 1st clip is of Shim’s turns (straights looked lovely), I did not reward the 1st one but rewarded the others, do you think they look OK?
The next 3 DWs are Ink, straight. The 1st one she nearly fell, again. Did not reward, was too high. The next 2 were rewarded, but I would still like her to come lower into the contact. It looks like she maybe needs to extend her last stride more, what do you think? Any suggestions as to how to improve hers? And she’s still slipping, a lot.
Thanks
Kriszty
How cool to have a training ring at the trial! Shim’s turns sure look great, really smooth and fluent, she is definitely fast enough. Ink could extend more yes, not only on the last stride, but also on horizontal plank -- but she really looks to be slipping every time… Does it happen on your DW too? Maybe she is just unsure on new equipment and being unsure and careful actually just throws her off balance? It will definitely improve with more experience, not sure how to help her other than running her over as many DWs as possible, with a nice straight approaches first and then adding other approaches too. For more extension, a toy thrown in advance should help, but I’m not sure if it’s safe if she slips so much…
Thanks 🙂 Yes Ink does slip just as much on my DW. No idea why. It doesn’t seem to matter what the surface is- the one in the training ring was rubber, and mine is not. I was practicing putting the pole on the end of the DW and sending her from extreme angles, like you suggested. Don’t know how to help her either. Have done a LOT of body awareness stuff already.. hope she just grows out of it??(she is 12 months). I agree that she needs to extend across the whole thing more.
Kriszty
Oh, yes, 12 months is really young. I think she just needs time. Also, if you work on turns a lot, you sometimes get less extension in straight exits too, so that might a reason for being somewhat high. Normally, after I address the turns and they’re o.k. with it, I don’t train it often, mostly do straight exits and a turn only here and there, to not affect their extension.
OK thanks. I was actually thinking of leaving her turns for a bit (not that they are great, nowhere near like Shims yet), and just work on straight DWs to hopefully get more extension.
My partner thinks Ink is slipping because her head is too low and her rear end too high..?
She does have interesting style yes, could be that adds to the problem. Maybe it’s because of the toy on the floor? If so, a thrown toy might actually help with it. And yes, not doing turns for now should help with her extension.
Hi Silvia
Here is Shimmer’s run in novice agility on the weekend. The exit off the DW as you can see is a tunnel, slightly offset. I thought her hit was a bit high, but she still had split legs so still running. Her hits in the practice ring were much better- is this just an experience thing in the ring? Should I be worried? The AF was lovely, even after a table!
Dog walk slow mo:
Whole run (sorry about the jumping one first, not on my camera):
Ink’s DWs have been a bit less wobbly this week, yay 🙂
Thanks
Kriszty
Great! Her AF is sure great and the DW was nicely in too. With my puppy, I noticed that when we train DW only she really focuses on a contact and is always nicely in. But on a new set up (either trial or training after I just moved the equipment and run a new sequence), she is often somewhat high first time, checking out where she is going next. Once she knows where the jumps are, she is fine. So now I’m moving the jumps around all the time -- and always using many as she is o.k. when there is just one, but if there are many around and she didn’t see them there before, she can spend so much time checking it out that she doesn’t extend enough. As Shimmer doesn’t look fully extended either, that might be her problem too, so try with many jumps in training. In trials, make sure you tell her where to go soon, I would be saying tunnel-tunnel as she is approaching the second apex in that case. Yay for Ink!
Not sure why this isn’t working
Thanks, that makes perfect sense and I think you are correct. I have noticed that if I lead out and go and stand by the jump she is to take (when there are many choices), she is a lot better. So I need to try and give her more information on direction faster- mainly run faster I guess? I have started using her directionals and she is better when I do that. She is much better on harder turns (eg 180 degrees off DW) then she is on 90ish degree turns- is this normal?
Tunnels that are set so that both entries are past the DW seem to be tricky at the moment, its not enough of a ‘turn’ to warrant the use of a directional and yet its not straight, either. So I have been experimenting for what works with that, trying her name for an entry close to me (although that causes her to look at me) and ‘out’ for the off entry (ie a push). What do you do with yours for this?
Finally, I would love your help with Shim’s turns (I have Cik/cap vid), which course should I join for this?
Thanks!
Kriszty
I handle slight turns that don’t require collection on DW as a straight line, say go-go and then show the obstacle I want. It doesn’t really affect their contacts if it’s not completely straight, so no problems with U tunnels, I either say their name+tunnel what they know means the tunnel closer to me or directional way from me+tunnel -- they know this very well from other areas of training as we see many tricky tunnels traps and we’re really well prepared for that 🙂
But when there are many obstacles around, I sure try to be there, so I train them to send to the DW well enough that I can always be reasonably close to the end. Just this weekend, we had an ugly, even dangerous entry to the DW and then backside of the jump that was completely straight and pretty close to the end of the DW, so I really needed to just send and run and I was very happy with how well they corrected the line and got on it safely (as I was told by others -- didn’t really see anything myself…). And yes, 90 degrees is often the hardest, hardest as 180. With Bi, I sometimes again handle it as a straight line and call as she is on a contact, but Bu is too smart for that, I can’t trick her and if I try, it makes things even worse, so I have to tell her and she is often high, but luckily always in.
For turns, Foundations is the right class. It’s a really cool class with many different levels, so I’m adjusting the tasks some.
OK thanks. Will join foundations when RC is over as am going away in Jan.
When you say you handle the offset tunnel after the DW in a straight line, do you mean you dont tell them which entry to take until *after* they are off the DW? (ie they come off straight and then you turn them on the flat?)
Kriszty
Hm, yes, but now I’m not sure anymore if I understood your question on how the tunnel is placed well… I though you’re asking for cases when the tunnel is pretty much straight ahead, but in U shape? As that doesn’t require real turn, I handle it as a straight line yes and then just say name-tunnel or left/right-tunnel. But I’m not sure if that’s what you were asking?
Yes that is what I am asking: a situation where the tunnel is in a U shape but the middle of the U is in a straight line from the DW (ie either end of the tunnel is not straight from the DW, will require either pushing or pulling.) Hope that makes sense..I will try handling in a straight line and then telling which entry, although if the tunnel is close to the DW (our minimum distance here is 4m), then that could be tricky!
Oh, yes, that’s our favourite set up 🙂 Normally, they will automatically take the side closer to me (when I train and don’t care which entry I’ll just say tunnel and they will take the one closer to me), so in a trial, I’ll try to be on the right side so that they should enter the entry closer to me. When not possible, I’ll be saying left/right (whatever is away from me) as they’re on a contact and run hard to help pushing them with my body language too.
Hi Silvia and classmates,
During the break, I decided to give Maia a one week break 🙂
I’ve moved the dog walk to a different spot. I did not know how high to set it, because on my last set up, the down plank was on a hill. Maia is getting the hang of it. This session was from October 17, Maia’s third time on this set up:
What I’ve noticed is that she has much nicer hits when I am running with her. I’ve been trying to throw the ball later, after she has a nice hit here and there, but she tends to look back to me for the ball.
Definitely a very nice trend within this session 🙂 Sure, you can run with her. If late throws makes her look back to you, try with the tunnel after DW: maybe the tunnel will get her focus and then you can throw after it?
I tried that today, and it did not go well at all. If I don’t throw the ball as she is running, so the ball passes her, she leaps in the air, even with a tunnel after the dog walk. She is very, very focused on chasing the ball. The only thing that worked, was if I was running beside or ahead of her and then she would get a nice hit in the yellow, go through the tunnel and look for the ball or come to me for a treat (I also had to change treats to something super good and new) If I ran slightly behind her and did not throw the ball ahead, she would leap in the air and/or slow down drastically on the downramp. I’m at work, so I have not downloaded the video yet. But it was not pretty…
O.k., let’s work with you ahead for a while then, cueing the tunnel and throwing the toy so that she can see it fly when still in a tunnel. Apart from that, try to do lots of sends to tunnels so that she starts to expect the toy after the tunnel, that should help too.
Ok, will do. Here is the video from yesterday’s horrible session. But look at the difference it made when I ran ahead of her! On one end I had a tunnel, and on the other I had a jump durning all ‘three’ sessions.
I just don’t get it, she seems to change daily. But I will try running with and ahead of her more and sending her to the tunnel on the flat too. Hopefully that will help her understand her job on the DW.
Holy smokes, Ania! Those last ones with you running ahead were great!
It’s actually not unusual at all for non-BC dog… Getting them to pull forward with you behind, without a toy in front, can be pretty hard for them. But the good thing is that once you get it, it really improves forward focus and pulling to obstacles on other parts of the course too! And hey, her contacts with you in front were PERFECT! And they’re actually pretty good as long as you’re not too far back, so that’s not bad of a start at all! Try being in front all the time now, always rewarding after the jump/tunnel and once she starts to expect the ball there, slowly try being less&less in front, but keep running full speed, don’t hang back -- you don’t really need that for trials anyway, it’s just easier for trainings, but well, I think my PyrSheps, unlike my BCs, will never run full speed over DW without either a ball OR me, running (not necessarily in front, but definitely RUNNING!) -- but that’s good enough! 🙂
Hi Silvia:
Congrats again on Worlds with both La and Bu. I just love watching Bu’s tight turns and of course all the running contacts!
I have spent the break continuing to work on “getting that contact from any starting point game”. I have slowly added some straight fast approaches. I also have tried to be stricter with the criteria. This video is from October 12. Generally, I have found the jackpots have decreased as I have added straighter approaches, although our success rate remains very high. I think Bender is doing a good job of trying to adjust to different approaches and I had hoped that when I added in the 20 foot tunnel approach I would see the 3 hit/ 1 1/2 stride pattern but Bender seems to have patterned himself now to the 4 hits! There are only a few 1 1/2 stride pattern offered each session and they tend to be very high or misses.
This session is in 2 parts:
I did notice that #1 should have been non-reward…
Shona and Bender
4 hits are not bad, Bu always does 4, but she is pretty short-strided for a BC and our DWs are longer I think. So what is surprising is that he is not deeper in with 4 hits… The problem is his reach forward and hind feet separation -- it is not perfect on that last stride… Well, at least he is mostly in now, so I guess you can keep working like that, but definitely pay attention to it and make a big party for more hind feet separation low in the contact. You can also try some throwing in advance her and there again, with Bu it really helps her get deeper.
Hi Siliva:
No, I don’t think 4 hits are bad I just thought since Bender had mostly only offered 3 hits at the lower heights that it would come back! I have tried throwing the ball in advance with no exit jump. Bender still consistenly offered the high hits (no jackpots) but I thought his hind feet separation was actually worse…
So today I tried the set-up with only fast straight approachs by sending him to a tunnel 20 feet back from the DW and having a straight exit jump. And I am very pleased with what Bender offered!! I was generous with the jackpots since I liked the more hind feet separation and his attempts to get deeper into the contact. The first attempt I started just 10 feet from the DW but the next 11 are all from the tunnel.
Was also wondering what our next steps would be?
Shona and Bender
Yey, Bender is adjusting his stride!!! I think that’s the first time I see him do it, so it definitely means the get that contact game is paying off and you’re getting there. You can do some more sessions on straight approaches again now to give him time to sort out that striding. -- And then you can raise it again if that’s not final height yet?
Thanks Silvia. Yes I am so happy with this session!!!!! The contact game has forced him to think about each approach and what to offer before he gets to the down ramp. But so nice to see that with a complete session of fast straight approaches we see the extension and split hind feet! This is full height DW for us already. I will continue with more sessions on just straight approaches -- I see that his striding is a mix of 4 , 3 1/2 and 3….
Unfortunately our wet fall weather has arrived and I probably will only have a few more weeks to play outside. Then I will have to get Bender used to a different DW in an arena.
Shona and Bender
Hi Silvia:
Since the last video we have done 6 sessions just with fast straight approaches- sending Bender to a tunnel 20 feet from the DW. His speed and extension have returned and so have the 3 hits (rear, front, rear). We started with a mix of 4 , 3 1/2, and 3 hits and now Bender is just offering 3 hits with this approach! This is yesterday’s session. I have jackpotted those hits where he is deeper. For the #4 Jackpot I put in 1/8 speed instead of the usual 1/4 speed for the slow motion segment.
I was wondering where I go to next. Do I go back to mixing up the different approaches? Or do I start changing the exit jump around for soft turns and keep the straight approach?
Shona and Bender
The good thing is that he is almost always in now and seems to really be adjusting his stride now to be in. But I would actually still like it deeper, so I would still keep working on those straight entries and exits, but you can also throw in some different exits yes: but still go straight in like 50%. It would also be good to try some other DWs if you ever have a chance for it.
Hi Silvia:
Thanks for the feedback. I am very pleased that he is adjusting his stride to get in! The work on just the fast straight approaches is paying off. In really slow motion I can see how he adjusts on the top ramp -- sometimes he splits his front feet which enables his rear/front/rear striding to be deeper. Or he now drives further over the apex to land with his rear feet further down. Or I have actually seen him skip a front foot placement to get his rear feet on the board! It seems that all the rear end awareness tricks have paid off because he always wants to get those rear feet in the contact! But it is frustrating because on some of them where he is very high on the contact or just missing he could easily get a front foot in but he doesn’t offer that. Although I have jackpotted any front foot hits, Bender very rarely offers it.
I will continue with the straight approaches and throw in some different exits.
And yes I just started getting on some other DW’s. I think we will need lots of practice here. Bender is very cautious at first thinking it is a teeter. Since our DWs have no slats it does look like a teeter…He is not confident yet to run at full speed instead he looks like he is trying hard just to stay on! He offers short strides instead. That said the 2 new DWs he tried were very bouncy. One was inside and he was running towards a wall which was also different. I am assuming with more experience he will start to see all DWs as the same thing. Over the winter I will have the opportunity to train indoors on different ones.
Also decided it was time to introduce the AFrame. It went really well! In one session we started with a few at 4’6″ and quickly went to 4’9″, 5′ and 5′ 3″. In Canada we compete at 5′ 6” but will need to get to 5’9″ for the US AFrames. I was sending Bender to wrap around a jump, then do the Frame, then over a jump for a thrown toy.
Shona and Bender
So great to hear that A-frame went smoothly! I think going to full height should be easy too.
Le had the same rear feet or nothing problem, so we worked a lot on just partial DWs to get some accidental front feet in too that I could jackpot and after that work, I started to see it also on more-speed full DW tries -- still work in progress though. Bi however used to do it with front feet, but then switched to rear feet and never again did it with front feet…
New DWs can be a problem for some dogs yes… But with every next DW they meet, it’s easier, he just needs as much experience as possible. Always start with an easy set up on a new DW and only work on more difficult things at home.
Hi Shona,
When you say 20 feet from tunnel do you mean the tunnel is 20 feet from the up ramp of the DW? And, when you say 10 feet lateral from jump, is the jump 10 ft off the center line of the DW or what? I don’t understand your setup some of the time. The wrap to jump to DW is clear. Just wondering for when I get to that point with my dog.
Thanks,
Maureen
Hi Maureen:
Sorry I didn’t mean to be so cryptic. It is hard with a stationary camera to get the whole set up in….I have a u-shaped tunnel set 20 feet back from the up ramp of the DW. I have been trying to work some stange entries with Bender. Yes, the lateral ones are sending Bender over a jump that is placed 10 feet to the side and end of the DW and he has to make a 90 degree turn to get onto the DW. I wish I could draw you a picture. Generally I was trying to send him from all different angles within a 12 feet radius of the upramp. Hope this helps.
Shona
Thanks Shona. It does help.
Maureen
Stella was fine after our six week break at the end of the summer--with nothing lost in the training, even better than before the break… but then we had to go back to the city again for a couple of weeks and this time when we returned to the training she was leaping all over the place… so rather than go back down in height I tried to simplify everything… not throwing the soccer ball in advance, no jump or tunnel at either end but she was still leaping alot…
I tried just running her down the down ramp and only part way on the down ramp and then when we went back to running the whole thing she was leapy again… the structure seemed solid to me… I could not figure it out
here is yesterday’s video which is a little better, not all leaps… and what I tried to do with this session was make it more fun with the soccerball, A LOT of playing between when she was getting good hits… because I felt she was stressing about not getting it right (I was stressing, I know)
and then later I experimented a few runs with dragging a tug toy she likes at the down ramp, which I am not sure about, because it is several steps backwards on independence (also, she almost slips off on the 3rd run, so then understandably the last run is slower, more careful…)
this morning we went out in the cold rain to train and no video, but I have to report—with no other obstacles, and throwing the soccerball as she starts running and a dinner dish 6 yards out at either end for jackpotting—she was running so much better today, 90+% hits
I don’t know really what is different, except we are back to training twice a day several days in a row… sadly we are going to have to have another four day break now…
so, did I do the right things, or should I have lowered the dw again too? why do you think she went back to leaping—its been so long now since she hasn’t?
--Dinah
I don’t see anything to worry about… You got some really beautiful hits, some high hits and I don’t really see many real leaps at all. Was she really leaping or she was just too high? Could be she experimented with striding some, maybe try to count her strides before the problem started and after and compare her speeds too. But as I said, I don’t see anything to worry about, just keep working like this. Dragging the toy is actually similar to throwing it in advance and it doesn’t hurt if you do it, but I don’t really think it’s necessary at this point OR that it gives you any better hits as the thrown ball… If the leaping reappears, just try to use her favourite set up -- whatever helps her succeed the most.
My slow motion isn’t working, so I know its harder to see… she is running across and then yes, often hind legs separated, taking an extra long *stride* off the end of the board… missing the contact or very high… and I guess I am just comparing this to how beautifully she was running a few weeks ago at the same height--with more variables of obstacles before and after--beautiful hits 90-99% of the time and I was thinking then, that after a couple more sessions we could raise the height again…
I wish I knew what was in her head… how one week she is almost perfect and just when I think she really understands, she suddenly gets leapy again
I know its hard for her not being able to train every day… but I am doing the best I can, getting maybe three days a week of access to our DW set up
I worry that maybe we will never get it trained : (
Dinah
I can see it, but I would still only call 3 of those a leap and 2 were caused with a late ball throw. And you got enough jackpottable hits that there is nothing to worry about -- just make sure you make a big difference between not so good ones and a perfect ones 🙂 Not training every day is not a problem at all.
Ok—thanks, I can do that even more!
I pretty much have stopped rewarding the high hits—UNLESS it is an overall bad session, then I reward the lower of the high hits, no jackpots, but a piece of kibble, because otherwise she gets stressed and sometimes even more leapy.