Time for a new lesson! And a "catch-up break" 🙂 With every class, we do a two weeks break for those who got somewhat behind to catch up and for those who are on schedule to give a dog a little break from plank running. I'll be answering your questions till Tuesday 4th October night and then again after 14 days, from 19th October morning again. Please don't post your videos during this time, I won't be reviewing old videos as things can change in 2 weeks.
If you're behind, make sure to complete lesson 1 before you start with lesson 2 and that you complete lesson 2 before starting with lesson 3 - you can't jump steps, there is a reason I'm giving you this assignments in the order that I do!
1. switch to a static toy, position it at the bar of a jump with a bar on the ground. The jump should be straight forward after the plank, about 7m away. The goal is the dog starts to look for a jump, knowing the toy is there. Occasionally, still throw a toy in advance, but mostly, have it there. When the dog already knows where it is, put a jump bar very low and a toy behind it (close after it, but far enough that the dog can land normally). Keep it there long enough that the dog is expecting it there. When you see the dog is pulling well towards the jump, knowing the toy is there, stop leaving the toy there and throw it after you click the contact, so that the dog gets it after the jump.
The goal is to switch from a static toy that is there as a target for the dog to focus him forward to a jump as a target to focus the dog forward and a toy as a reward we throw AFTER we see the contact is good. You need to be pretty quick as you don't want the dog to wait for the toy - so quick that I sometimes throw it before I realize the contact was actually not THAT good - but it gets easier 🙂 I guess this step will finally make everybody worried about rewarding leaps happy as now, you can withhold the toy for unsuccessful tries. HOWEVER, make sure the dog successful rate is high for this step as otherwise, you can loose the speed and get the dog checking back with you if you're throwing a toy or not. The same can be dangerous if you're late throwing a toy.
This is usually an easy step for BCs who will run full speed in anticipation of the toy, but can be a very hard one for some other dogs. For Le, that was the hardest step. She was running beautifully if the ball was still rolling when she saw it, but if I threw it that early that it was already static when she saw it (or when I positioned it there), then she didn't extend well enough. What finally worked was going few steps back with height, exciting her a lot with a toy, throwing it at the jump and sending her quickly to the dog-walk. That made her striding good enough to continue long enough to have her look for the jump and then I quickly switched to a toy, thrown after the contact is done, over the jump. That temporary caused some checking back with me, so I needed to go back to a stationary toy again, but then she finally got the idea to keep running full speed towards the jump/tunnel and trust the toy will appear then 🙂 and that again gave me the beautiful striding I had before trying to get rid of a toy, thrown in advance.
If the transition to a stationary toy is too hard, another way to try to avoid that phase is to pretend you are throwing a toy in advance, but then only throw it after. OR, using a tunnel as a way to focus the dog forward and throw it after the tunnel - works great with tunnel crazy dogs, didn't work with Le. Try and report back if you have problems.
2. keep adding height. If you have an option, it's also time to try the real thing. If you don't ahve a low DW you can use a normal dog-walk with additional plank at the end. Start with down ramp only and then slowly put the dog further&further back until you run the whole dog-walk.
When trying this or any other, new variable, don't vary other variables - make it as easy for the dog to succeed as possible. You can also lower a criteria somewhat. Normally, your criteria about hits by now should already be to be deeply in the contact - but temporary, you can click for good tries on a limit too, IF hind feet are well separated and the dog is not leaping.
3. new trick: have a dog back up on something very low and preferably soft first (folded blanket, low pillow) - then slowly add height, so that they need to pick up their hind legs higher&higher. At the same time, you can teach a "pee trick": click for lifting the leg, searching for an object, before they touch it. Make sure to try to get leg lifts on both sides - they usually prefer to go up with the same leg, so try to sometimes position them somewhat diagonally in front of an object so that their preferred leg is too far from it to start with that one. Also try climbing stairs backwards and cavaletti backwards.
Have fun! I'll be back to answering on 19th October and will publish new assignments on 7th November, so you'll again have 3 weeks to work on this assignment in class form - and 2 additional weeks to either catch up or take a break 🙂
Hi Silvia & classmates,
I have a general question about fading the stationary toy at the jump into a reward thrown after completion of the obstacle. My dog is VERY focused on the toy i’m using -- a ball. As of yet I’ve not had any problems with him looking at me he’s always had forward focus. However, any attempts to carry the ball on my person ends up with him looking at me toward the end of the DW and leaping off the end.
I’ve tried putting his favorite ball at the jump and carrying a lesser ball on my person and that seems ok. I’ve also tried using 2 balls of equal value and tricking him by putting the ball down at the jump and trying to grab it before he notices. Some of these work a bit but then when he gets wise to me carrying it on my person the handler focus comes back.
How did other people deal with this? Anyone have any good suggestions? I’m thinking maybe just mix it up with most of our tries going to stationary ball to start. I’m also thinking maybe i should go to a lesser value toy -- however i think if he knows i’m carrying a toy he will think i should be throwing it ahead like we did before as more of a lure then a reward.
Thanks for your help.
-grace
It took a lot of back and forward with Arrow to get this too; The method that seemed to work the best was to backchain the jump or tunnel using restrained releases to encourage really great drive to and over or through the obstacle and start further and further back and then add the down plank of DW or elevated plank, etc and going back to start of DW.
I alternated this with early throws of the ball; At first only occasionally asked for the tunnel or jump, other times threw the ball early.
With the tunnel, when I was alternating this I shortened the tunnel and made it straight; I can’t throw far! With the jump I tried to throw through the uprights.
Also, when we were using an up ramp and a down ramp I was starting him with the tunnel and then occasionally I would send him back to that tunnel.
He thought that was really fun! Surprised me.
Now I am able to reward with his ball after the curved tunnel for good contact hits
Usually, the problematic part is switching from thrown to a stationary toy -- and then fairly easy to switch from a stationary to a toy thrown after. If he doesn’t understand the concept “see that ball right here in my hand -- well, go run ahead and take that tunnel/jump to get it” -- I would definitely work on it separately from DW some. I run every agility training with a toy in my hand and it doesn’t put them in a toy-focus at all as they know the toy will only come after I click something they will do: I teach this concept already with tricks and food/toy right in front of their nose -- but the only way to get it is to ignore it and focus on their job. So definitely work on that away from RC training. Meantime, keep using a stationary toy, but carry another one on you and throw it after -- does he go after the thrown ball then or takes the stationary one? You can also still mix it up with some early throws and some delayed throws. But I think the key part here is really teaching him that focusing on a ball doesn’t get him the ball.
In general, I do think he understands obstacle focus with me holding the ball as I generally work him for toys. Of course, I do tend to work more for a tug toy rather then his ball so I will mix that up too.
I think we’ve gotten into this issue because of the pattern I set previously of throwing the ball ahead as a lure. So even though I haven’t done that in a while he assumes if I’m holding the ball i’m going to throw it early so he can chase it. He only starts looking to me on the down ramp because at that point it would be a late throw.
I’ve had a bit of luck using a stationary ball and another in my pocket which i pull out last minute and throw. He then goes to the thrown ball not the stationary ball. My plan was to fade the stationary ball to some other toy and then fade that totally. Problem is that now sometimes is looking at me even when i’m not holding the ball and we are going to just the stationary ball -- so i’m trying to be pickier with what i’m rewarding. I’m trying to more heavily reward the forward focus. It does seem to be improving daily so hopefully just more practice will get us there!
Yes, that sounds like a good plan. If he likes tunnels, you could also use stationary toy after a tunnel and hope he will drive for the tunnel more. All in all, he needs to understand the reward is only coming after the next obstacle, so that he doesn’t look back at you for a toy on a down ramp.
Interesting. Today I had access to a tunnel so I tried this out.
At first, i set the straight tunnel pretty close -- 12′ away perhaps with the stationary ball out at the end. That went well so i carried a ball and he didn’t even seem to notice. GOOD.
Then i pushed the tunnel back maybe 1.5′ and he was still fine with me carrying the ball. However, when I went to about 15′ away from the down ramp he started looking at me again and then subsequently missing the contact and the tunnel. Hmmm. We will have to work on this more. He definitely finds the tunnel rewarding!
Well, that’s a very good start! Now just pull the tunnel back gradually enough that he stays in obstacle focus. I’m sure he will soon be searching for his tunnel even when pulled further back.
Here are my rear leg lifts from HW#3:
He’s also offering a lot of rear + front foot same side lifts at the same time -- cool!
Great! You can definitely try side legs lifts too!
Silvia,
Here’s where I’m at now:
The indoor session was last night and perhaps the worst session we’ve had in a very long time. Punk seemed extra ‘high’ and did a lot of the striding shown in 1.1. He did finally give some good ones when i gave him less room to run as a lead in (1.2, 1.3). I had the ball in my hand and a short straight tunnel in front of him which for the most part worked well to draw forward focus. Is 1.1 a 3 stride? Is that the issue? Do you consider 1.3 to be overreachy?
The outdoor session was this morning and he did almost all jackpots and 2 rear leg hits at that. I am carrying the ball and throwing as a reward. He is running to jump 20′ out instead of the tunnel and doing much better for the most part with forward focus. I think maybe in 2.2 my throw is late which is why i get the head turn at the end.
Do you think this is good enough to now start moving my finish jump & start lesson 4 or maybe go up in height?
Thanks!
-grace
Yeap, almost all his hind feet hits are 3-stride. That’s perfectly o.k. as long as he can still hit nicely in 3 🙂 1.3 is what I call “dropping one front foot down to hit” -- when overreaching, they put both front feet down, just above the contact, and then overreach with hind feet. What he does is comes too high for 3-stride hit and too low to hit again, so he drops down one front foot -- not the most comfortable way to do it, but a VERY good sign that means he knows hitting it is important and trying really hard to do so. It also looks like you were able to switch to a toy thrown later really well afterall, so you can start moving the exit jump yes, despite I would actually first raise it some, I think it might make things even easier for him.
I’ve also used static toy after a tunnel now (you can see our whole set-up on video at 1:00) because Vissa likes tunnels the best and I don’t think she is looking for that plank yet but follows the ball and if I throw badly she runs past plank.
We had carpet over the plank first and I think she doesn’t hit the plain plank as well. Plank is 3,8 m and carpet abt 4,1 m. I wonder if that has something to do with this.
I guess her speed is okay on both?
I’ve had 2 sessions outdoors and she’s not nearly as good there when I didn’t have a tunnel to start from but tried both restrained and cik&cap around a tree. Or then it’s all the wind and flying leaves etc. that catch her attention time to time.. Unfortunately I accidentally erased that from my videocamera but I’ll have another try outdoors to see if it’s still not working that well. Otherwise I would like to have this tunnel set-up for at least couple of sessions more to try to make her understand that plank work better.
And that run on 0:48 she ran by herself without a toy waiting while I was fixing the tunnel! 🙂 Huge jackpot 🙂
Looks GREAT on a carpet! She does get airy on a plank though. It doesn’t look like a length issue at all, but as if she is not sure she really wants to run on that thing. How many sessions have you done of a plank, maybe she just needs to get used to it? Make sure it’s not slippery and maybe let her trot over a couple of times to get used to it. The last try was already better, so I think it’s just a question of some more sessions. Once you get the same performance as on carpet, you can raise it some. Tunnel to tunnel is a great set up, you can keep using that. When outside and you don’t have a tunnel to focus her on, try throwing a toy in advance for now to make it easier for her.
That was second time on a plank. First time (10 repeats) we did outside and it didn’t go well at all (1/10 jackpot). That’s why I started this session with the carpet over the plank to have some good runs first.
That plank has kind of “sticky”/non-slippery surface but I was thinking should I still have some sand painted on it. I didn’t see her slip but did notice that she does’t like it as good as carpet on full speed. Trotting or walking on it was not a problem. I’ll have another session tomorrow and let’s see if it’s any better..
Here is a new video from this morning. I posted now all our tries for you to see what we tried. Some runs are okay but mostly I feel that something is wrong.. She was quite leapy with carpet as well in the beginning especially if I threw a ball badly but it wasn’t like this. Do you think I should have another session with this plank for her to get used to it or should I do something with the surface to make her like it better?
I did make her run over an A-frame this morning just to see if she doesn’t like that material either. But it went nicely, no problem with that good rubber contact.
But… Why do you have that ball there??? That’s WAY too close and it’s normal it makes her leapy… I though we agreed to keep using a tunnel to tunnel set up? But yes, she is still leapy with no ball there. Maybe it’s the width? How wide is this plank? Could you try two side by side? Or if an A-frame is thin enough, you could use that as a plank?
I’m not going to keep that ball there but because she went past that plank a couple of times at first I wanted to see if she avoids that plank altogether. Just noticed on video that I should have put that ball abt 4 meters from that plank to avoid her leaps. The plank is 60 cm wide and the carpet was 70 cm. I only have that one 60 x 380 x 1,5 cm plank, so I can’t have 2 side by side.
I’ll try the A-frame next time. It’s this one, not too thick I think..?
http://www.sporttikoirahalli.info/IMG_5265.jpg
If it works, even better for me when I don’t have to carry that 25 kg plank around, it only just about fits into my small car 😉
Hm, it is somewhat thick, but definitely try it once to see if she runs normally there. It’s very strange she doesn’t run the plank normally, 60cm should definitely be enough… You could try running her over the plank into the tunnel and back, ignoring the leaping and just run in circles until she settles down and starts to run normally -- ad then jackpot.
Okay, I’ll try those and let you know how it goes..
Hi Silvia! I tried that A-frame now. What do you think about it, should I use that instead of my plank? I think tunnels are too close in this (?) but I wanted to make sure that she will run on that “plank”. We only did these 3 tries now because I wanted to hear what you think first. I had her running back to me after a second run, so you can see that she is not running full speed on that AF when you compare her speed running to me. But it was first time on flat AF, so I’m not sure should I worry about that? To me it seems that she runs better when I’m running as well (Stupid me was too concentrated on watching her feet and either stopped or at least forgot to throw that toy :O Poor doggy, so much for owner to learn!! 🙂 )
Yeap, less leapy as on the plank, but not yet full speed. Try sending to the first tunnel more so that you can be further ahead and push more. I would keep working on this set up, with tunnels somewhat further, until you get real sped and good running. You will then need to switch to a plank again to raise it though as an A-frame is not good for raising. But you could maybe use DW plank as it’s the same material then.
For some reason there is no Reply-button on your comment Silvia but Thanks for your advice, we’ll keep this set up for now and I’ll post the next video when I think we’ve reached her full speed again. I don’t think (I hope so!) that it shouldn’t be a problem.
And yet the reply came into the right place.. 🙂
Hi Silvia,
I’m back from my trial, which went very well -- Maia had awesome running A-frame contacts! 🙂 I was very proud of her.
So, since I took a week off due to weather, I decided even though the weather is still bad -- wet snow, slippery etc. to practice today anyway. Here is what I am finding lately with her: if I don’t throw the ball so she is chasing it, her contacts are VERY high, or she misses or she slows down completely. If I throw the ball ahead for her, she will take the jump after the DW and she has perfect, low hits, with great speed ahead and 100% accuracy. I think fading the ball is going to be very difficult for us. I am unable to get her to get nice low hits when I throw the ball after she hits the contact. -- sorry no video because it’s snowing and I can’t get the camera wet 🙁
So this is where we are at. Our training will be a lot slower now that its snowing so much.
Glad to hear the trial went so well!! As for when not throwing the ball in advance… -- does it still help if you’re ahead or not? I would try being ahead every time when not throwing a ball and when you’re behind, still throw it, but play some with timings, try some very early throws (so that the ball is pretty much static by the time she gets there) and some very delayed throws, just to make her less dependant on a throw. It was a hard step for Le too, but once she realized the ball will come over that jump, she was fine with it.
Hi folks -- you are all doing great!
We are still having only 2 or 3 sessions per week because of the weather. My lighting attempts didn’t work well and I can’t transport my gear anywhere else. Lucky there’s a few other things to do!
Too cute! Long winters sure make agility trainings more complicated… But offer lots of time for tricks 🙂
Yes!
I always knew the weather would “end” this course sooner or later. We will just keep up with working contacts when possible. Next year if they are not mastered we will join up again. We are not really getting anywhere with a few sessions a week, but you never know…..cumulative results maybe
With such a small dog, training in a hallway or a basement or something might be possible… My plank for Le went from kitchen to a living room and the reward was in a bedroom 🙂 But of course, you also need un-slippery flooring for that.
I tried that but our home is too small for the plank and running space -- she would need to slow down which is a no-no!
Finally got Spur going on this trick. I don’t know why it took him so long. He knows lifting one leg up and kept offering that, so then I would put him on the chair and bring him down in a 2o2o, but reaching back with both legs seemed to stump us so we took a break on it. Came back today and he just did it!!! 😀 I have another video that is clearer, not sure why this one is so “bright”, but youtube is taking FOREVER to load it. I tried using a pillow in front of the chair and that sort of worked, but he just suddenly seemed to get it today!
I use Diane with Bean’s cue……”Bum’s UP!!”. LOL!!
Cute!
Very cute! He has a nice style for independent handstand too!
It took a long time for my dogs too. OK, not training it every day, not even every week, but now and then. Say it took about 2 months. Sen learnt faster than Bigi and I think it was because she was better at backing up to start with. But once they get it they really get it!
I love the bums up cue -- I just call it “legs” because clearly I lack creativity! 🙂
: ) Arrow does not back up yet. I did a really good job of teaching him to jump or hop backward alternating barking at me for reward. Of course, I was clicking for any backward movement, instead of all four feet on floor and walking back. Oh-oh!
On a good note, hopping backwards is a good start of a handstand 🙂
Hi Slivia,
I raised the plank and placed a jump after the plank. Let me know what you think.
Still going great! 🙂 For the next step, try an up ramp to a table (or even better: two tables to make it longer) to a down ramp and a tunnel or a wrap as a starting point.
Hey Silvia…video as promised.
First I have to appologize! My last few comments sounded so whiny :-0
I guess I just let some frustration show but as usual I sat and really looked at the videos and took a deep breath and it doesn’t look as bad. But here is how it unfolded.
First video was at a place where low DW was still higher than where Nevis was at home so I think in that case he really just needs a slower increase in height. This is the session where Amy and I were talking and she made the comment that it looked like he didn’t know what he was even suppose to do. And I wish I could talk to him because I don’t know if he does know what he is doing here! Looking at it I think he has a clue maybe not the skills yet. It also makes me realise that I need to work on my clicking as some times I tense my hand and click without wanting to!
So then I tried session at home on really low DW it did not go well. That session was not taped but I believe that was where I got 0 sucessful hits but here I know I had many miss clicks, not good. No wonder Nevis is confused. So I lowered DW even more and actually pulled off upramp to make 2/3 DW and that video is here. Again sucess rate not looking so good.
During that session I had also tried some flat planks and they were mostly misses so I took a couple days break to regroup (this might have been when my whiny post came through!) So after those couple days I relaxed and went back to flat plank on the ground. First couple are misses and then he gets a few jackpots in a row. Interesting thing is that after the string of jackpots I moved wrap jump to challenge him a very little bit…he missed but on re attempt with that same jump wrap he was in. In that video is also the next mornings session which went pretty well I thought.
So while it is frustrated at being back at flat plank I am feeling a bit better. I was thinking of trying to get a 12 inch wide board similar in thickness as my wide plank. Nevis is definately touch sensitive on feet and I know a step on a lip will make him do some avoiding. I have tried stuffing towel at end of DW but not sure it is enough. If I get thin plank I could use the DW cross plank with thin plank as down ramp. But that is later. I think I am going to slowely raise this wide plank and try to do a bit more challenges for him before I decide he is ready to move on. Give him time to forget about that nice long stride he likes to put it at the end 😉
Going back to the plank sounds like a good plan as you are getting somewhat too many misses on a DW -- and he does prolong the last stride even when just another normal-length stride would take him nicely in. I would do different starting points on a flat plank and then start raising it, but you will soon have to switch to 2/3 of a DW again as just one raised plank determines his striding a lot. But it’s fine for now as what we need the most at the moment is getting consistently nice hits!