Most people think I gain most with running contacts, but as there are maximum two occasions to do running contacts per course (none in jumpers), that's not really true. You can gain the most on turns. Tight turns make the biggest difference, especially in nowadays 3rd degree/masters courses where it's all about the turns...
Teaching cik&cap is the best investment to
- improve your course times
- make handling and timing easier for you
- improve your dog's obstacle focus, distance skills, sends and independent performance
- take lots of stress off your dog's joints
- make turns more fun for your dog
For more on Cik&Cap, see a training DVD or join Agility Foundation Class.
Normal jump vs. cik
Hi Silvia, I’ve been working on cik cap for the last couple of weeks, I wanted to get at least to where I am now, before sending on any video… I wanted to get the circling behavior STRONG, first, before I started sequencing trees, poles. At first when he would be completing a circle, and I would click and throw the toy, he would sometimes duck behind the pole, to run and get it, without completing his circle. I backchained it, and he’s not really doing that now, so my plan is to begin sequencing the poles (I have a tree on my property too) for a bit before trying a jump standard..
Yeap, time to try sequencing!
Here is my video and question: I’ve added a 4″ jump on one side of a jump standard. When I walk or move/run towards it, my motion sends him ‘wide’ and appears to override his ‘trained’ command to wrap tight. Should I keep working like this, to desensitize him to my motion, meaning he should wrap tight and ‘ignore’ the fact that I’m moving towards the jump?
Any other ideas as to how to teach that? We haven’t progressed up in height with bar at all, as I don’t seem to get the same tight wraps with even one little low 4″ bar on 1/2 a jump as I do with the single stick in the ground weave pole.
Wow, the wraps on the pole are sure GREAT! Love how well he wraps them! As soon as it starts to look like a jump, things get difficult for him as he goes to his known jumping behaviour instead of wrapping. You movement made it especially hard. With every new height, you need to do multi-wraps first, then add more speed with sends and only then add movement from your side to make it easier for him to succeed. Also, a bar like this promotes going towards the lower part, so I would use the whole jump and jump on a lower end of a bar first and then go to equal height next.
Ok, thanks for the feedback; I will set up a full bar, maybe make one end lower than the other. Then ‘without’ motion, by standing close to it, do multi-wraps, then progress to sends with no motion, only using his own speed, then add my motion. I should progress like that for each new height, correct? Just restating to make sure I’ve got it correct in my head… ๐ Thanks!
Exactly. And yes, you need to do those steps on every new height, but it usually goes pretty fast, it’s only some heights that can be problematic, like this first one and then again when you get to or over 18″ and things start to look like real jump.
Just a quick question. How do you get collection and a short jump for a tire? I guess you can not use cik&capfar that. Do you have any tricks up yourv sleave or is it just about handling with that one?
Why not? I do use cik&cap for a tire too, IF the legs of a tire are not that big and high that it would be dangerous for the dog to land on them.
Oh really? I just figured couse cik&cap means to wrap around somthing they would wrap the side of the frame, missing the tire… Good to know it can be done I guess, we’re just struggling with Leevi going through the frame, not the tire when he knows there is a turn comming up. But I haven’t used cik&cap on it so i guess I’lll try and see what happens…
Well, of course the dog needs to know a tire well first and know they need to jump through. When they know that part, you can use cik&cap, they’re wrapping the tire as such with it -- IF they already know to jump through the tire, of course ๐
And what about a spread jump? Do you use cik/cap there?
No, on long jump I use left&right. I do use cik&cap for double jump though.
Iยดm sorry, I mean double jump. How do you train it? Just full size with adult dogs? Itยดs really wide for large…
I don’t really train it, actually… My dogs jump it the same way as a normal jump (they don’t jump any longer as they would for a single jump when jumping it in extension), so I handle it just as any other jump…
Thank you! There is no problem with my shelties, but I didnยดt know how to train it with border collies from my friends. And itยดs so easy, as always:-)
Hi,
I trained my dog cik/cap turns from the puppy age. He loves it and there was no problem at first, he did really tight turns. But he has 43,5 cm now so he is in large and jumps are to high for him for doing cik/cap although we gradually increase the obstacles after 5 cm. When he has good speed (after straight jump or tunnel) it is no problem, but when we do for example out and then immidiately on the same obstacle cik/cap, he canยดt jump in the right direction or he has to reduce his speed a lot (almost stop) and then he jump in the right direction. Should I make him small binds before obstacles or make the obstacles lower again? Or do you have any idea how to improve it? Thank you a lot for your answer!
Martina
Oh, not a good size… What I would do is lots of strengthening exercises and conditioning first, some bouncing work and similar to make it easier for him to jump that high and meantime work on somewhat lower jumps yes, bringing them up very slowly as his strength increases. Happy jumping!
He has good muscles, because we do also canicross, hiking and tricks. But what do you mean by boucing work? Iยดm not good in English… Thanks!
Yes, but jumping muscles are somewhat specific. Sit up to stand up and back, sit up to down and back etc. would be good. Bouncing is when you put jumps so close together that he doesn’t do a stride in between, but takes of immediately after landing.
Hi, sorry if I interfere the discussion. I wanted to know, so is bouncing meant to built the dog’s muscles? And about tricks, do things like jumping (voults and similar), two-legged tricks (expecially stand), and things like 4 paws in a bowl or balancing on a big ball/stick over the ground/sombody’s feet and so on help too? Thanks a lot!!
Sure, there are many tricks that help with either strength and/or balance/coordination -- we work on many of those in puppy class, as a preparation work for future (or already active) agility dogs and I’m also planning another DVD, “Tricks for balance, strength and coordination”.
Hi Silvia, do you remember Cairo, your student from Colombia in agility fundations? There had been a long time since the last video that i upload here, but I want that you watch this videos from Cairo in our last natinal tournament here in Medellin and tell me what do you think about how are we both. Any opinion is well recived ๐
Cool, you are sure both very fast! ๐ You’re somewhat late on that first front cross, but it’s almost impossible to be in time with bars on the ground, so… Also, keep working on sends and commitment, he keeps checking with you a lot. But again, everything will be easier with bars up!
Wow!! What wonderful progress! Nice!
From a fellow AF classmate.
Hi Silvia,
Well about a month or so ago I started cik/cap training, but it seems that my dog transferred the behavior to her weaves! For a while she kept missing her entries and when I tried to re-train them (with just two poles) she just kept wrapping them! Now I’m not blaming the method since I hadn’t fully trained her entries before starting cik/cap. So for now I’m holding off on training it and fixing her weaves, could you tell me what I might have done wrong, and/or what to do in the future not to confuse her? She picks up real fast so she transfers really well ๐
Thanks so much, love your methods!
~AllAboutKeira
I never train weaves before cik&cap and never saw or heard of the confusion but then, I use channel method for weaves and it looks like completely different exercise. But I haven’t heard about the confusion from anybody else either and we always start cik&cap work way (up to a year!) before we start with weaves, so I think the problem is somewhere else.
Oh, I didn’t know it was better to train cik/cap first. Plus, I didn’t even know about cik/cap ’til after she had weaved a little.
Okay I am retraining her with channel method anyway, do you think this will stop her confusion? When I first trained her weaves I used a variety of methods, which was bad on my part. I know the problem occurred on my part, no question in that. So no one else had this problem? Well maybe she didn’t transfer and she just decided to miss her entries, hah I don’t know.
Thanks so much!
Good, I think that will help with the confusion yes. It shouldn’t happen whatever you teach first, but well, I think she will get over it once you train the weaves really systematically.
Okay, will do!
Thanks so so so much!
So many questions, I’m sorry ๐
Real quick, I might get the chance to train a new dog soon, do you teach cik/cap before you teach regular jumping, which do you think is better to teach first? And when you want them to wrap is all you say ‘cik or cap’, or do you say ‘jump, cik or cap’? And for a regular jump you just say ‘jump’ right?
Thanks so much!
I always teach cik&cap first (with no bars first) and yes, I only say cik/cap as “jump” means jump in extension and “cik/cap” means jump in collection -- so I can’t say both for the same jump! ๐
Haha okay I see. So your dogs are wrapping before they ever jump? So once you add the jump bar, they only do cik/cap jumping for a while before you teach regular extension jumping?
Oh and this is a little off topic and I know you have classes for this but really quick, what are some things you like to teach your dogs first (having to do with agility)? Like what do your puppies learn first? Obviously tricks I know ๐ just wondered if there were some specific things that you believe help? Like agility pre-training! It can be brief since I know thins could be a long topic ๐
Exactly. I introduce collection jumping months before extension. Tricks come first of course, see puppy class graduation videos as those are the tricks I find most important for future agility dogs and that’s what we focus first on. From agility tricks, we first introduce wrap&go game, see-saw banging game and run that plank game. -- For longer and more detailed explanation, Foundation class would be the best choice yes.
See this dog, if it works out at all, will not be mine. She is my friend’s dog and I want to train her for pure fun and practice for my dog. Not that agility isn’t fun anyway ๐ Ha. So that is why I just asked here because I would still like to start her out right.
So basically you start with tricks that are beneficial to agility, then to obstacle foundations, then you move on to obstacles and handling? Oh and ‘wrap&go’ is cik/cap right?
Again thanks so very much, I really enjoy talking, err typing, with you! ๐
Yeap, wrap&go is cik-cap game. They learn handling cues somewhere on a way -- or actually, just get it right away, it’s very natural for them with no extra training for that. It’s rather the handlers who need training for giving their cues in time, dogs usually know it all already ๐
Haha thanks! I think I’m all set! Thanks again! ๐
Hi Silvia,
Ok, so it isn’t cik/cap but it’s jumping- close enough! My 30cm at the shoulder (he jumps 35cm normally) JRTs jump technique is shocking. He’s a fast little dog in all other aspects, but he takes off so early that he hits bars with his chest (behind his front legs, sometimes landing on the bar). When he’s at the highest point in the air, he’s not even beginning to clear the jump. He finds jumping courses a challenge because of this, along with jump straights. Do you have any ideas that could help him take off later? I have tried putting a pole on the ground in front of the jump so he takes off between the pole and the jump, but he just takes off earlier. I have also tried gridwork, but this also results in an even earlier takeoff.
Well, it’s often because either they don’t see well OR because they are too careful about the jumps, prepare too much and take off too early -- and crashing into the bar makes them prepare and take off even earlier… So try with bars on the floor and see what you get: if he is still jumping (even after several repetitions), his eyes are the problem. If he runs smoothly over then he is overimpressed by the jump and you need to have them more gradually, starting on the floor and then progressing by raising them max.5cm every 10 sessions or so.
Thanks Silvia I’ll try that!
Here is a video from me and Ginger. The dog who didn’t play until 6 years old ๐ (I posted earlier by ‘ready steady go’ dvd)a nd now she starts liking the frisbee as well ๐
She is doing quite good I think with cik&cap. This is the second time on the ‘tree’. And just before I did this, on our walk we heard some loud noices sounded bit like firework expolosions. So she was very scared. But she recoverd quite quickly and I was even able to train some cik&cap with her! She was a little bit distracted sometimes, but did great after all.
I’ve got a question. Should I keep using the clicker on this stage? Or leave it behind? I thought you didn’t use the cilcker in the woods on the video, did you?
And I suppose when she doesn’t understand wich side she has to take, I should just start a littel closer to the tree?
If you got some tips or comments I’d like to hear them ๐
Cool! But I think she would be even faster if you run more with her to the pole -- try racing her there. That way, your body language will tell her what side to take and then you can also practice with more objects. She doesn’t need to know the direction on just a verbal cue to proceed. You can still mark the best ones with clicker -- or just use your voice, it’s not very important once they know the behaviour already. I always use a clicker in the learning or improving phase, but then mostly not anymore.
thanks I’ll try that!
It works really well! She gets faster en more excited if I run with her ๐
Now I’ve got another question (just want to do it all right), what will eventually be the vocal command? just ‘cik’ and ‘cap’ or repeat it? ‘cik cik cik’ and ‘cap cap cap’. So what should I do now, already just say it once. or just keep going with repeating the word, like 2 or 3 times?
Oh, it’s as you prefer. I like to talk to my dogs and always repeat everything several times ๐ Some people think it weakens the cue and confuses the dog, but as I’ve never seen this problem with my dogs, I just go with what we like ๐
Ha,
I love that about you Silvia, as I have always done the same. Mostly because I couldn’t seem to shut up but also because I thought the dogs did better, had less questions when I did so. Anyway, I felt much validation seeing that you have the same habit.
Heidi
Yeap, I have the same reasons ๐
I have a 3 month old puppy. How old should a dog be before you work on running hard with them. I know you wouldnt do it for any duration but when would you teach them cik/cap? Would you do the games and tricks first and then when they are say 6 months start this. I am very cautious not to overdo things.
Well, I first teach cik&cap as an easy shaping trick of circling around a table leg or something, no hard running involved, so you can start it right now. I also do some full speed running with puppies, on restrained recalls and playing as I think it’s important they learn how to do that and that it’s fun -- as a separate game. I put the two (of running fast + cik&cap) together at about 5 months, but of course avoid too many repetitions -- as with everything you do with puppies, the moderation is the key.
Thanks Sylvia, you are amazing in your response time. I will order the video so that I understand it for when I am ready to train it. I have a nine year old that is more than ready to learn the system. Thanks again.
Have fun!!! ๐
Hey Silvia,
I have a question regarding cik/cap. I trained my young BC Lou with cik/cap or at least I tried to. When I started with only one wing, she wrapped it beautifully and bent her body in order to stay as tight to the wing as possible. But as soon as I added the pole and she had to perform a “jump”-movement, she started to get wider. She also did not really collect her strides which I didn’t notice at the beginning because she still stayed close to the wing. I added a video, but it is from almost a year ago. As you can see she is driven and also a bit crazy as soon as I work her with the toy, which I actually love!
I rised the bar slowly but the higher it got, the more obvious it became that Lou understood the wrapping part but not the part where she is supposed to collect herself. I tried to go a step back and lowered the bar but as soon as she had to actually jump, she got wide again.
So when I ask her to wrap a large jump now, she knows that she should return to me after the jump but she hardly slows down and does not jump in a round movement around the wing.
I am just wondering what might have gone wrong to know better for the future. Do you think I raised the bar too quickly? Or shouldn’t I have rewarded wrappings as wide as those on the video?
Thanks for your advice!
First of all, I would change the approach to the jump so that she comes from the side, so that you can see better if she is staying close to the wing instead of in the middle of the bar. Then, I would reward tries like 1:06, but not reward tries like 1:08 -- she is jumping in the wrong direction there. I would work on this height until she understands the importance of staying close better, but challenge her with more challenging approaches (side approach), because when you send her from the angle as in the 1st try, she is not really learning anything as the approach is too easy, she doesn’t need to collect to stay close for this approach at all (because she is already coming from the right angle) -- I hope that makes sense?