As I already wrote: I know it's quite hard to keep up with this class program, especially to those who can't practice every day or have had some problems with plank work. Don't worry about it, keep working on it and send videos of wherever you are. Print out lesson 4 to start with it when you're ready, but don't push for it. If you want to keep working on it within the class form even when the class finishes, there will be a new class starting right then and you're welcome to join for a lower price, I just opened a registration with that option.
For those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW or DW with a plank with a jump or a tunnel after it, here is the lesson 4. For those who are still struggling on a plank or have troubles with low DW - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat too. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try also running into nothing. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! Put it somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Hi Silvia!
What do you do about dogs who slam the up on an a-frame? Little Roscoe, the drumming MinPin, sometimes slams his up and it sure must hurt. And when he does that his contact isn’t deep and while he still gets in, it is pretty high for such a little dog and it’s a pretty big leap off. I have used hoops for the up, but I don’t think that really teaches him anything?
Thanks, Amy
Yeah, hoops don’t give you any understanding, but if you keep them on all the time, he might get so used to land on that spot that he will be fine even without. As much as I don’t like hoops for down contacts, I did see them work for up A-frame ramps.
Thanks, I will try using them every time. I admit to getting lazy and not putting them there at times. At least the hoops will prevent him from slamming. :O
Exactly. If he does it here and there, it’s no big deal, but doing it every time is definitely not good for him.
Well, after a looong break we had a session today. First time I tried the play mats and I think it was better (or what do you think?). Some was not good but I had a feeling she was running better. Perhaps because I decided to put the reward far away, ca 15-20 meter).
Yeap, looks good. Lets keep the mats only for a while.
Great that you also liked it! Ok, only for a while. It wonders me that she was running although the mats were ‘floating’ and moving so much. Perhaps the large distance to the reward was the solution?
Do you think the speed is OK? I started her 2 meters away, the reward is static (food in a bowl).
Yes, it’s o.k. Keep the reward far, it’s better anyway. Soon, you can also put the tunnel between the mats and the food, it might make her run even more and it makes fading the food eventually easier.
Hi Silvia!
Obi has just hurt his paw and we have to stop training for 3 weeks. 🙁 How long will this class be opened?
We have been working so far on the DW (also on a new one, no problem 🙂 ) and if he can do contacts, he will always miss the first ones. If I put him on the middle of the dw he is ok after that. I have trouble in having constancy. He sometimes does it well sometimes not. And he starts to run slower to hit the contact so I don’t know if I should let him do so or not. Sometimes I fell like he doesn’t really understand what he has to do: running fast or hitting the contact.
It’s hitting it so it’s o.k. if he adjusting his stride. I think his problem is that he has too long stride for the nice, symmetrical 5 strides and 4 are much harder for them to do it right, so he is still learning and probably slowing down to think about how to do it. I think he just needs more experience. Do start him from the middle first if that helps.
Hi Silvia,
I have a question for the future, to help me to understand how to use running contacts.
When my dog has perfect running contacts and we’re doing a course in competition, can you explain how you handle the obstacles after the DW?
I’m assuming you’re usually ahead or behind, and your position provides some inforamtion to the dog e.g. if turn is coming because you’re further on that side, like in lesson 4.
Do you wait until the dog touches the bottom contact to say the next command? Or can you say it earlier and just support the bottom contact? Do you usually use Cik, Cap & Go as the directionals?
Do you ever do a front cross at the end of the dw?
Hi classmates!!! I had today a trial and the agility course has a tunel in front of the DW, but we had to take the tunel for the dificult side… I compited with my wire fox terrier she is 4 years old, she is my first agility dog, she does a king of running contact but she is not so fast so I can be allways ahead of her. My other dog is a really fast border collie, but she has a pretty nice 2o2o contacts so I can release her when I´m ready.
this is the picture
If there is a soft turn after DW that doesn’t require collection on DW already, I will tell them the direction as they’re exiting the DW. If there is a sharp turn that requires collection already on DW, I tell them in the middle of horizontal plank with Bi, at the end of it with Bu and at the beginning of a down ramp with La, either left or right, so that they can add another stride on DW. It’s left/right, not cik/cap, as cik&cap is always around an object. I only use cik&cap for first session on turns, as I have a pole there, but then quickly switch to left&right. For straight exits, I use go-go And yes, sure, I often do front cross after DW -- if there is a turn after. If it’s a straight exit, then I rarely can be there in time for front cross or blind cross.
I forgot to attach the image
I don’t see any difficult side… One side is “go-tunnel” and the other one is “Bu/Bi/La- tunnel” 🙂 We see that all the time, it’s just a question of training, I teach it away from RC as a game: if you hear your name, don’t take the obvious tunnel, there is another one waiting for you somewhere.
Cooollll!!!! thanks 🙂
Hi Silvia,
We are working on exposing the contact (yellow) part of the wide plank. As I expose more of the contact area I have found a decrease in performance. I was getting good hits with the hind feet in the contact area when the carpet was covering the yellow. Now I am getting hits in the contact area with only or his front feet. Is this just the process of my dog adjusting to a change in the board or should I change something? Sorry for the quality of the video. There was a huge smudge over the lens.
Thanks,
Rick & Disco
Are you sure it’s because the removal of the carpet? To me, it looks like after flying the apex, it’s normal he can only put front feet (and sometimes even only one) in -- to get hind feet with such a long striding dog, he would need to only do 1,5 stride on a down ramp, meaning that he would need to hit the plank with rear feet first, so front feet land just above the contact and then hind feet in it -- see this striding pattern in my video, when Bi does 4 stride DW. I think that’s what you’ll get at the end too, so the best would actually be to switch to a low DW, if you have one, as it will be easier to get hind feet on a down plank first there as on this plank. For this plank, he is actually doing a great job, I think he is trying really hard! It definitely looks like he understands this game.
Hi Silvia,
On 6/28 I posted a video of the same set up but only the carpet covered all of the contact area (yellow). If you get a chance to view this one you can see that he is making better hits when the contact area is covered. I will continue to expose the contact area and go to a narrow plank then switch to a low DW as you suggested. Once I get there I will submit another video. I this recent video he is in the contact area so as long as I continue to get this performance I should be in good shape and we may see something different as I go to a regular DW.
What do you think?
Thanks once again for all you help!
Rick & Disco
In my opinion, what changed since the video before is not only exposure of a contact area, but more flying over the apex -- what made the second stride harder. I think it has more to do with that as with the carpet, that’s why I suggested a low DW as he has more striding options there, so he might find it easier. So yes, switch to a narrow board now and then try the real DW.
Here is our latest session. It was the third session with the play mats and I thought she did pretty well. Therefore I decided to try the plank under the play mats. But that didn’t work well at all, so I ran some more on the play mats again. But then, there were no good running on those either. Then I used my nephew to pull a toy to get her in a hunting mode. And I spontanoisly decided to try to make her run over the plank.. but didn’t find it so good, but clicked.. 🙁
In the session I constantly felt that I didn’t find a good starting point (she often just took one stride on the middle), or I clicked when she was jumping, or she was jumping,.. there were not really many good things. The worst was the clear contrast to the plank, there she is really JUMPING the contact zone so clearly..
What do you think?
Hm… Back to the play mats, make them longer so that she needs to do more strides on it and stay on just mats for a while, until you’re ready for some height: only then add a plank again and make sure to fix it well.
Ok, will do that. I was getting too happy on the running on the play mats and thought it would work with the plank.
Hi Silvia,
I have audited this course but unfortunately not been able to do a lot of keeping up or training of my dog! However in the small amount I have done I have some questions!
My border collie is loving the game, she is running on two planks side by side and the number of running hits is definitely improving. However I can’t help feeling that the success is completely related to the timing of my throw and that she isn’t really learning and that the behaviour is ball dependent (a lure). If I throw the ball so it is flying ahead of her is when we get our best hits. If I throw too early she jumps, if it is stationary she jumps, if I am ahead she jumps. If I throw late she is not running hard out and thinking about me and the reward behind her.
Would love to hear your thoughts. I think I will be joining the next course with a working spot so I can have you hold my hand through this process.
Charlotte
Sounds like a good start! -- But still a long way to go… Did you see how to fade the toy in the assignments I posted? Did videos of participants show well enough at what stage you’re ready to do it? Do those who are already at this stage look like the dogs don’t know what they’re doing without a thrown toy?
I will have to go back through a lot of video to answer that 🙂 I just worry because she is ball/toy obsessed that she isn’t really learning as she is getting the ball regardless of the behaviour she is giving me. I appreciate that you jackpot the good ones but her ball drive is exceedingly high and I’m not convinced she differentiates. Getting the ball for her is a reward.
Yeap, the reason we do that in a class form is that you can learn a lot by watching videos of others. If you can’t follow them all, choose at least 5 participants (maybe with dogs similar to yours) and follow their progress through the whole process. At the beginning stages, when you are still throwing a ball in advance, you should mostly be getting running anyway. With enough repetitions, she will start to anticipate it and then you can start throwing it after (or withholding it for bad attempts).
Back from vacation, I tried Chip on the low dogwalk tonight. There are from one session, I just moved the camera around to try and fit the whole dogwalk in. He was sent out around a jump wing about 15 feet before the dogwalk in the first half. Starting with #7 I left him in a sit stay closer to the dogwalk.
#2 and #10 were rewarded with tug sessions since he dropped a front foot down. #7 was really jackpotted!
With the exception of those ones, he was really consistent in hitting the exact same spot in the middle of the down ramp. Not really sure what to do now??
That’s not unusual problem for a BC on US length DW… On our DWs, most BCs do 5 strides and it’s a really nice, easy striding as it’s so symmetrical. With shorter DW, most BCs would have 4 strides DW and the problem with that is that that means they need to do 1,5 stride on a down plank, hitting it with hind feet first (vs. jumping the apex as in 5-stride-pattern) -- see Bi’s 4 strides DW example.
If Chip flies the apex, it’s very hard to add one more stride after -- one front foot is the best he can do then. Of course, it’s good to jackpot those tries, but I would definitely jackpot 8 too. 8 is very close to what his striding should look like, only that hind feet need to come somewhat lower on a down ramp when they first hit it. Can you reproduce more of tries like 8?
Thanks it’s helpful to see your video of Bi’s dogwalk to know what I’m looking for.
So should I continue to work with this DW and see if I can get that? Or should I go back to my previous set up of 2 tables and try to get more rewards for low hits?
This is the biggest challenge I’ve ever had dog training and it’s frustrating me not being able help him figure it out. But I really want to make it work, going to sign up for your next series of classes too!
Yes, I think low DW is the best set-up to try to get hind feet hit the down ramp first. It’s somewhat hard to see it “in live” but if you do see it, definitely jackpot, even if the contact is higher as eventually wanted (like in 8).
Hi Sylvia, i notice many of the dogs in the videos are doing nice up sides of the a-frame, if you see a dog who is really jumping and slamming her front feet on the up side, how would you teach her to approach it
in a safer manner?
Sue
Not sure why, but never had a slammer among my RC students… In this particular case, I do recommend stride regulators before the approach or a hoop on up ramp -- not that they would learn anything with it, but at least, it makes them land nicer in training and might make them land nicer on trials too, thanks to the habit.