As you did so good with your first homework, you're getting some more this time 🙂 No worries if you don't manage to do everything in 2 weeks, you can always come back to those tricks. Post wherever you end up, we learn the most through problems, so you want to post those too! 🙂
1. experiment with different toys and ways to play with your dog. Tape his favourite game to give some new ideas to other participants (and me!!!)
2. instead of a plate, find something a little higher this time to give them a better feeling of where to keep their front legs, click first for front feet on an object (should be easy, you want the same thing as on a plate) and then observe hind legs and click for ANY movement (even just a weight shift) and then shape from there to more&more steps around the object. I first click both directions and once I get a quarter of a circle, start clicking one direction only and reward with a head away from me in order to get a full circle. The final goal is full circle in both directions, with you static (don't help the dog to circle with your movement!) - I think those that have my heeling video can already do that exercise, though 🙂
3. take the plate and hold it in different positions to see if the dog understands it's the same thing even when you hold it higher, under angle, to his left/right etc. Try when he is standing, sitting and lying down. If you didn't name touching an object with a paw, it's time to do it now! Also, try to change objects for this exercise, sometimes also use a hand as a paw target. Once he can do all that, you're ready for next two tricks we will get out of the paw touch:
- crossing paws: tell the puppy to down (or shape it if he doesn't know it yet), then hold the plate (or, you can use another, smaller and more convenient object, like a plastic lid or a piece of paper) close to left paw and only reward touching it with left paw. Then hold it closer and closer to right paw, still only reward left paw touches, then hold it on right paw and eventually on the other side, jackpoting the touches of left paw on a right paw now in order to eventually get rid of a target.
- sit up: tell the puppy to sit (or shape it if he doesn't know it yet), then put the plate (or just use the hand if he will recognize that as a target) low enough first that he can reach it with a paw, but then every next time, hold it a little higher - not that high that he would stand up, but high enough that the other leg leaves the ground a little bit too. Jackpot.
4. observe your puppy and try to find situations when he would back up - it usually happens when they're moving out of your way - or sometimes when you're working on ignoring the food in the hand. You can try to sit down on the floor with treats in your hand and click first step back with hind foot. Don't wait for more than one as they usually sit down then. Click&reward the first one and reward by throwing a treat towards the dog. Rewarding at distance will help you add more&more steps and more&more distance from you. At one point, switch to rewarding with a toy, it's easier to throw.
5. 2on2off - find an object big enough for the dog to go on with all 4 feet easily - maybe just put your first 4in object upside down? - Click for 2-3 legs on and then don't click the fourth one, you don't want any duration standing there! Only click again when the dog is leaving the object, try to catch him with 2 front feet on the ground and deliver the treat while he is still in this position. You want them go on an object and off immediately, stopping with front feet on the ground. Click&reward several times for a position, then say "go"/"o.k."/"free"/whatever your release word will be and throw a treat away so that he needs to leave the position to get it. Do this enough times that the dog starts to expect the thrown treat after "go", so that then you don't need to throw it in advance, but only after he leaves the position on "go". Do not help with body language that you want him to leave after "go" - if he doesn't know it yet, go back to throwing a treat and progress more slowly.
Another note: I'll be able to answer your questions this coming week with no problem, but then the week after I have seminars here, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep up. If not, we'll just add another week to this class.
Just a quick question about #5. Can I teach the dog to put the two back paws on an object instead of having her get on an object and then take the two front paws off? The reason I am asking is because the way you are describing teaching it is the way I taught Maia 2on2off for her contacts (and to hold that position until she was released), BUT I am now retraining to your running contacts and I do not want to reinforce her 2on2off default. I think I can teach her to back up and put her two back paws up on a low object however. Would that be ok?
O.k., yes. We’ll be doing it in that direction too 🙂 but yes, as you’re retraining, it’s smart not to rehearse the 2on2off too much 🙂 I do teach it to dogs who will be having running contacts too, just as a trick, but then they are never asked to do it on a plank, so it’s not confusing, but since she already knows it on an obstacle as such, it’s indeed better not to practice it too much.
A question about the naming of behaviours. Do you always do that? I am very lazy about this -- usually the object/some sort of body movement is the cue. This (lazy part) is probably not a good thing…but my dog is very very slow to learn the names of behaviours
No, I mostly don’t bother with naming, they know too many tricks to bother finding names for all 🙂 I do name those that I use a lot (for warming up and conditioning), have a hand signal for some, an object that cues the behavior for those that include objects -- for other, they just need to guess what I want by the first click 🙂
I still have a question on lesson I. Can we still post them? And where is the best place? Still under lesson I?
Maybe you already answered this but I can not keep up with the posts so I asked it again!
Agility season started this weekend in Belgium, so it will only get worse since I do not have internet access during the weekend…
Yes, best is to post it under lesson 1.
Inge, Did you know that a lot of motels have internet in your room thought wifi or something like that. If you have a laptop. I’m going to to on the road this week also. But I think I will be able to get internet, I hope!
We do not have wifi in our motorhome. 😉 Well in fact we do have internet access via my husbands I-Phone… But the screen is too small.
In Belgium, for many of us, agility means, get in your motorhome on friday return sunday evening and this every weekend from april till october. 😉
Maybe it’s time to look into wireless internet solutions.
Inge, I have a motorhome in USA. I have an Iphone, my 1st intro video was taken on my Iphone and edited on iphone with I move app Then I set up my you tube account on Iphone. That was only ok for a 1-2 min video. For my longer video with lots of different clips, I had to do it on my computer. It was a pain to film on Iphone without someone else. I had to hold iphone, train, click and treat. Next time I’m using a video camera on tripod. When you log on the Iphone there is a toggle switch at the bottom, you want mobil themes off. Then you can get to the puppy class and save it on your main screen. I have troubles getting through all the comments or finding my comments on the phone.
“I first click both directions and once I get a quarter of a circle, start clicking one direction only and reward with a head away from me in order to get a full circle.”
Sorry Silvia, please could you explain this a little more? E.g. where should I be standing in relation to the pivot object? I don’t really understand the “reward with head away”… Thanks!!
Also, is the final behaviour (circle around) usually named?
Well, you are standing so that you can see an object and the dog 🙂 Dogs will usually position themselves on an object so that they see the handler and will try to keep front position, circling hind feet to the left and right a little bit, but often not being happy about turning their head away to complete the full circle -- many people reported this problem already on a first session, that’s why I thought to mention it in instructions already. To avoid that, I like to reward the dogs from the side, so that when getting the reward, they don’t look at me, but left/right (normally left if they’re circling to the right and the other way around) to learn that’s o.k. too. Not so important with puppies, but often a problem with adult dogs who were reinforced a lot for keeping eye contact.
And no, I don’t name the circles as such, as the object is their cue, but if you want, you can name it, that’s o.k.
Got that!! So after the click it is ok to walk closer to feed, and then step back? (just not move around while getting the behaviour)
Also, I like the idea of letting the object be the cue -- so at the end the dog should spontaneously offer both right and left circles when presented with the object? Summer’s pattern usually is that she will keep offering one side that I have been clicking for at the time, and then I will have to “shape” a little for the other side and then she will keep offering the other side. Is this normal?
Yes, with a bigger dog, you might need to step in to reward and then back to give her a place to pass you 🙂 I don’t have this problem as my hand is longer as my dogs 🙂 But yes, you shouldn’t be moving around, making the dog move by your movement as it’s very hard to get rid of it.
And yes, that’s o.k. that she keeps offering one side and then you re-shape the other one a little bit when you want it. I do that with many tricks that they know, but are not on cue -- click the first time they’re thinking in the right direction to give them a cue and then they will immediately know what we’re working on.
This is an example of how i am doing it.
Wow what a fast learner! That looks great.
Here is Blast doing #2, I will post a better video when I get home.
See Cheryl, no need to back up and come in with this size of the dog! 🙂 Laura, he does rely on your hand a little bit too much, you still need to work on independence a little.
Ah I see… The mechanics for big and little dogs is quite different.. Sometimes I wish Summer were little! 😉
That was a few weeks ago when I was having a problem with complete circles. Here is one from today. Is this better? Also, he doesn’t like to touch my left leg but he hits my right one. I put the touch plate and playing dead ignoring cookies on the video too. I still have to teach frog because I was rewarding the play dead.
Laura, my other dogs are BC’s wow totally different from my little 7 pound papi-jack. The little dogs totally cheat by using your hand as a lure when you feed them, even though your body is still. Then spin around your feeding hand. So once they get it. I wait her out for at least 1/2 turn. Discovered it was a piece of cake to look like she had it when I rewarded her 1/2 way. Get your hand behind your back and you will see what see really knows. So different from the BC’s.
I will try to post my dog cheating.
I will try today with my hands behind my back. Thanks
Play dead ignoring cookies is just too funny! Pivoting is going really well too. Are you rewarding both sides with your right hand? I think rewarding with left hand for left leg would fix the problem.
I see Blast goes clockwise better than counter. I wonder how everyone elses dog will do on that. Mine does better on counter clockwise. =)
Yeah, I try to reward the counter more. Of course I need the counter for left side heeling 🙂
Oh, I didn’t realize that we have another papillon in the class! He is so cute! Much farther along than my Dragon. 🙂
Blast is 19mo old. How old is Dragon? We started the rotation stuff awhile ago. It took 2-3 weeks to get the rotation good. He already knows a touch plate, but unfortunately he also nose touches and #3 is suffering bc of that. He also does 2o2o on his dogwalk, bc I failed to teach Silvia’s running method well 🙂
In a couple of weeks Dragon will be one year old! I’ve only had him for 3.5 months, though. I really want to do agility with him, and have been doing lots of tricks as part of the foundation!
I had a look at your YouTube channel and subscribed. Love how fast paps are on the agility field! 🙂
I just want to say I LOVE that photo of Le!! Just awesome!!!
🙂 She sure takes that game very seriously! 🙂
Silvia-I have a couple of questions on lesson 2:
#3 paw touches-- When you say to name this, is this an action cue such as “touch” or do you cue for individual paws, ie. right & left? And are we working toward crossed paws in both directions?
#5 2on2off-- Is the goal to have the dog back up to the object & put their hind feet on object or to get on the object & take their front feet off? I’m confused as to whether this is an exercise for contacts or preliminary position for handstand…
If you wanted, you could have two different names for the two paws. I use “touch” and don’t care which foot they choose -- but they also know “the other” that tells them to try with the other leg. We’ll be doing crossing in both directions, but I start with one first and then start with the other from zero, clicking the other leg only. We’ll also be doing 2on2off in both directions. This week, it’s on and off -- especially important for those who will be using it for contacts, but a nice exercise for everybody else too. We’ll also be doing backing up on an object, don’t worry 🙂
I have got a question that is not about the homework but just behavior, i hope it is ok to ask that kind of questions too.
My dear In- Joy truely is a border collie. She is chasing shadows or herding them, it is both outside and in the house. She tries to lik up the shadows or biteing in the gras to get them. It is realy anoying to me, but more important it must be atleast just as anoying to her. I can break it just by calling her, and she can relax and be calm too but i would like to minimise that behavior.
My lokal trainer told me to let her herd the shadows and wait till she looked up, click and reward. Hovever that just made her herd eaven more and i think what happend was that she made a link between the two behaviors.
Any good advice?
Wait for her to start hearding and then click and treat? you’ll just be rawarding the hearding. I think that dogtrainer of yours got clickertraining all wrong…
hmm, OR you could try to put it on stimulus control… Meaning that yes you would click and treat when he is doing it…
This means that you first click and treat ths untill he does it reliably and then adda a cue. When you have the behaviour on cue you need to train the dog to wait for the cue and not go herd before being told to do so. It is a fun way of teaching a little manners…
heres a vid of this matter (not mine though), here the problem is jumping up but you can adapt it to a shadow-hearding-dog too…
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Yes! This is how we taught Summer to stop being hyper all the time as well.. Have a turn on and turn off switch. Very helpful!:)
Thank you Lotta for sending us this very usefull video. Do you think we use the same method to get rid of barking?
If yes, would you mind describing me how would you process?
Yes, you can use the same method for barking. The tricky part is finding a good reliable situation for capturing it… The thing is that when you are teaching the dog to bark on cue you do not want them to bark AT something (like an animal or a person, unless the person is you). Because there are different sorts of barks and this lunging/intimidating/”getoutoffhere”-bark is not what we want to capture and reward. We just need an exited or frustrated bark. Like when he cannot figure out what you want and barks out of frustration or when you pick up the leash and he barks out of excitement.
You capture and reward this like the jumping on the vid untill he gets it and starts offering it more.
Now there are 2 different ways to proceed depending on what the dog does:
IF the dog only barks ones for the treat, allways ONE bark or just a couple. Then you proceed as in the vid, adding a hand and a verbal cue. And then ONLY reward the dog for barking AFTER THE CUE has been given. Then try in different situaions where the dog would bark normally.
IF the dog keeps barking untill you click or naturally offers longer “howling-barks” (kind of, hard to explain) you can teach him a quiet word. This is not as common and most dogs will probably just bark once when they realise that it is a trick they get clicked for… Anyway your dog shuts up when you click, right? so first you say “quiet” and then click and treat. Many times. Then you say quiet and wait to see if he does it. With time and repetition the dog will learn that quiet means “you have barked enough and you will get your treat”, together with the barking cue you can now controll the dogs barking pretty well. AND if the dog barks at the door or something without a cue then you have a “quiet” cue to give them. 🙂
Longish explanation but hey, you asked :D.
Well, she mostly barks when she is excited (wants to play with my old dog) or frustated (she doesn’t understand the trick I am shaping).
I alreaady taught her to bark on cue, she understood really well and she loved this trick !! But I didn’t get to the next step.
If I summarise:
step 1- she barks, I click and reward (c/r)
step 2 -- say “bark”, she barks, c/r
step 3- say “quiet”… and then I still don’t get it, sorry 🙁
what happens if she does, if she doesn’t
thank you again
Hmm, didn’t know she allready knew how to bark on cue. So…
If you ask her to bark c/t, ask again c/t and then stand there quietly. Will she bark again without the cue in order to get the treat? (and you shouldn’t reward that btw). If she will wait quietly or even offer something else like a sit, then part 2 of the process is done allready (part 1 being just capturing the bark). So would you test this and tell me how she reacts?
Thank you so much this makes very much sence, but i am not sure i dare to start rewarding the herding….. I have to do some thinking to make sure i am doing it right. It would be a nightmare if i made the herding any worse 😉
Wow, thank you for that! This opens up whole lot of possibilities to tackle the unwanted beahviours, esp. barking -- I have a terrier, you see…
I would be interested in how many cases you all know of actually managing to shut down the barker that way???
I was on vacation and couldn’t answer yet. How would you process to make dogs shut up?
First of all I would like to say that this exercise will not shut down all barking. It is an exercice that you can do in allmost all situations that the dog would bark and then decrease barking in one situation at a time. ith Leevi I noticed that he did not generalize it so well, meaning that I needed to train this in every situation where his barking annoyed me… Just so you know that this does take some work to generalise in different situations but I like it since it is deos not include any punishment.
So your dog knows bark on cue? good, now comes the “don’t bark unless asked to ” part. Meaning that you ask your dog to bark, then to sit/down. The dog learns to understand that in these training situations he will not allways be barking at you but also doing other things for you. Ask for easy things the dog allready knows, such as left/right, sit, down… and then every now and then ask for a bark. But do not ask for a bark that often and after this point, never reward offering a bark again.
When your dog is good at this you can just stop asking for barks all together and just have a dog that works with you and fokuses on you instead of barking in that specific situation. But don’t expect him to generelice it …. Don’t know if Leevi ever will… Just need to train this in all different situations…
And Silvia, I, unlike you am not a dogtrainer of other dogs than my own. So I can only speak for myself and do not know how many other trainers use this sort of method… And just in ca
…but of cource, I would love to know how other people train this, especially Silvia, this is her class after all 🙂
And I guess this method is not for everybody, everybody should use what feels right for them… 🙂
Well, my preferred way to approach unwanted behaviors is to avoid them to happen in a first place 🙂 Herding, hunting, lunging and similar very strongly self-rewarding behaviors, I try to stop before they happen. I have my puppies in the woods and agility trials a lot, but keep my eye on them all the time so that if I see the thought of hunting or lunging might come to their mind I call and distract them immediately. I don’t mind the barking that much and will let them express themselves 🙂 -- but will of course recall and put them in heel or down if they over do it. That’s my general approach to good manners: do whatever you want -- if not asked otherwise 🙂 They will never bark when home alone, but if they bark here and there out of excitement or as a warning, that’s fine with me -- afterall, they’re just dogs 🙂
For more specific advise, I would need to know in what situations she barks?
But what if the dog allready has a barking/hearding/hunting prolem? Then just prevention wont work as well couse they “know what they’re missing” and allways try to do it (of course preventon is still important but is it really enough?). Many people don’t think about this at first (especially with their first dog) and then have to deal with the problem later on…
Tibby just started a behavior that I would like to stop ASAP. When we are walking and we meet another dog Tibby wants to greet them.
If I won’t let her she starts to bark and jump. I have asked her to sit whenever we see another dog, because she gets so excited. So now she sits and then starts barking. Eventually she gets so excited that she bounces up at the end of her lead.
She isn’t agressive, because if she gets to greet/sniff the other dog she is perfectly quiet and polite.
It’s frustrating because I can’t get her attention and I can’t walk her away from the other dog and get her to calm down (if we are on a sidewalk). She only does this with dogs she hasn’t met yet, so practicing with my friends’ dogs also doesn’t work.
Well, I would start doing her favorite tricks with her favorite treats as soon as you see the dog. As soon as you know her attention might wander off, turn away and walk away from the dog. She can only get to greet the dog if she stays with you until the other dog comes all the way.
I will prevent it to happen by not having the dog in situations that provoke it to happen, work on recall and self-control apart from that and when I think they’re ready, I will slowly bring them back to problematic situations, first from far and keeping the dog busy with tricks, then with heeling, then in down, rewarding calm behavior and then go from there, slowly adding distraction and rewarding for appropriate behavior -- ideally making it gradually enough that the unwanted doesn’t show up -- but if it does, the dog is immediately taken away from the situation. It takes long and is hard, but I doubt there is an easy way with behaviors like that…
Well my puppy barks for:
1- frustation (when I’m asking her for doing sth that she doesn’t understand, when she wants sth she cannot get, when I have to leave her alone)
2- excitment (for ex. when she plays with my older dog)
3- fear (often in the dark when she wants to go outside but something afraids her)
I don’t mind for #2 (she doesn’t express herself too much) and #3 (she’ll grow and get used to it) but I’m more worried about #3.
“do whatever you want – if not asked otherwise” --> Precisely I’m asking sth and cannot distract her, can I?
Is it a lack of submission, is it because she is a puppy…?
PS: We live in an appartment and I don’t want to get in trouble.
Thank you for your help.
And thank you Lotta for your advises.
So you live in an apartment eh? Then you definitely can’t ask her to bark, so prevention, keeping her occupied and controlling the stimulus that makes her bark willl be the name of the game (pretty much what Silvia just said :))
It is true that these problems are hard to get rid of, obviously cause they’re selfrewarding but also cause dogs tend to have problems understanding the concept of “doing anything BUT NOT this”. It is much easier to give them a clear job to do…
Submissive dog is the last thing we want… We want a team player, a happy and confident dog who cooperates because he thinks it’s fun, not because he is submissive to anybody! That’s a very old school of thought, I was told 20 years ago my Samoyed is not submissive enough to be able to do something with him -- and I proved them wrong and worked on confidence and confidence only with every of my next dogs.
Anyway, the barking is very common with dogs who were originally lured -- and when not lured, they will bark to ask for help. We had a terrible barker in first puppy group, but with very high rate of reinforcement, we completely shut her down. With dogs, who will bark to ask for help, you need to progress in such small steps that they never feel a need to ask for help. Reward A LOT and throw the treats to make them move and release the frustration with movement instead of barking. If she gets frustrated or barky anyway, just stop the session and try again later, making it even easier.
Before leaving her alone, tire her with tricks and play and then leave her with your other dog, so that she has some company. If she still barks, then you can shape her to like a crate and then teach her to wait quietly in a crate that you first set next to where you sit and then further and further away so that she learns she can quietly wait for you to come back when you’re in another room and then eventually not home at all.
Herding is self-rewarding, just as hunting deer for example -- and just waiting for the dog to stop and click it won’t stop it, that’s for sure. The more they practice it, the more obsessive they get about it, so try to stop her immediately -- call and give her something else to do. If you always stop it, I think it will go away, the only problem is if she is alone often and can practice it then? I also noticed that it’s much easier to make a stop to things like this when the dog is mentally and physically challenged enough so that they can channel the energy elsewhere. Meaning that agility, obedience, tricks… are all great -- herding (real sheep, not shadows!) would be great too!
Thank you. I will try to stop her and be more consistant.
I agree with Silvia. I have a Sheltie and we all know they like to bark. He knows “speak” and he knows “shhhh” as tricks, and he also still knows how to bark…and it has more to do with his defense drive than learning NOT to bark at things. A dog “in-drive” needs to have that drive channeled. Teaching the dog to make a different choice when that drive kicks in is very different than teaching the trick of “shh” or “bark”. For instance we work very hard to teach the Sheltie that when his defense drive kicks in, he should look to us to handle the situation and provide an outlet for that stress/ energy. Same thing with the herding. Herding is a modified prey drive and, again, working with a dog “in-drive” is very different…and can be a very useful tool for training when you harness/ channel (whatever word you want to use). I would definitely do as Silvia says to give her the physical and mental stimulation she needs as well as a herding outlet. If her herding needs are being met along with physical and mental work, she may not feel the need to herd those shadows anymore. You will still have to distract her though because it is most likely a habit now. And there are games you can play that mimic “hunting” with your dog and can help channel that prey drive (we play a ball game with our BC like this).
Hope this helps.
Birget, Teach your dog “leave it”
I haven’t received any confirmation for the videos’ payment. Have you received the transaction?
Yeap, your four DVDs are already on their way 🙂
Thank you Silvia. Can’t wait to know more about your “philosophy” !
Silvia, in exercise 3, the second part of the exercise would do the “bear” as I put in the video? Not if I understand correctly
Yes, that’s the sit up. I teach it with paw targeting as I like front feet up in the air. You can try it that way too, just to train on something that looks like a different exercise even though at the end, it’s the same one 🙂
Silvia Okay, then try to teach the exercise of how you’ve exposed your … 😀