Most people think I gain most with running contacts, but as there are maximum two occasions to do running contacts per course (none in jumpers), that's not really true. You can gain the most on turns. Tight turns make the biggest difference, especially in nowadays 3rd degree/masters courses where it's all about the turns...
Teaching cik&cap is the best investment to
- improve your course times
- make handling and timing easier for you
- improve your dog's obstacle focus, distance skills, sends and independent performance
- take lots of stress off your dog's joints
- make turns more fun for your dog
For more on Cik&Cap, see a training DVD or join Agility Foundation Class.
Normal jump vs. cik
Love reading all these questions on the cik/cap training and some of the videos posted. I finished watching your DVD, wish I could put it in slow motion on some of it to see your handling. I decided to just say Turn. You mentioned in the video that this was okay because normally your body would cue which way to turn. However I can definitely see advantages to having both because they know going into the jump which way they are turning even without your body. However, I have used Turn so need to face the music!!
My question is on rear crosses. How do I switch arms and get him to turn the other direction. If he is on my right he will right and vice versa. But if he is on my right say and he goes around a tree and I want him then to cross my line and get on my left, not sure at speed how to do it. He will just blast past and wrap again on the right??
This is more of a rear cross question as cik/cap question and it’s hard to describe how to do a rear cross… You can see it in the DVD -- just open it on a computer in a player that allows slow motion (almost every player does). We’ll show and discuss it in Foundations too. Basically, you have to first pull him in to come to the tree from the side you want him too and then slightly before he is there, push on his line to let him know you’re changing the direction.
I have a question about putting bars higher.
With my border collie puppy (10 months already) I’m doing your cik&cak training. I startef when he was 6 months old and he is training on the obstacles since 2 months (earlier he was running around trees and so on). Now he can do more complicated runs and it is about 90% correct, but not on the really hard situations or when my command is too late. I’m doing a lot od multi wraps, but it is a praise for him, because he loves them. I can catch the best tight turn and praise him. I’m thinking now how fast should I put bars higher (he can run on large not earlier than after next 8 months). I’m thinkng that if a bar is higher the situation for a dog is diffrent, so I need to back to less complicated runs, do multi wraps to help him jump on the diffrent height of bar and properly shorten his movement. And so on with every change of a height…
I’m thinking how to make a longer term plan (for a few months). Should I do it longer with jumps but without bars (with bar on the ground) and then after few months fastly put bars higher and higher? Or should I work on every single height for longer and how many percent of perfect turns he should do to decide to put bar higher?
In this moment it look perfect and I don’t want to do shit with it, but I can’t decide when I should put a bar higher to not make a situation for him too difficult or on the other hand not be on the same stage for too long…I know it depends on the one single dog, but could you write me please what was the tempo you did it with Bu and Bi? So I could have better idea what to do:-)
I put the bars at 10 cm when they’re about 6 months and then raise it by 5 cm so that by the age of 18 months, I’m on 65 cm, doing all the scenarios and multi-wraps on each height yes -- you can’t just raise it quickly, so start now and raise when he is mostly tight.
I have watched the video several times but am having trouble getting multi wraps. If I dont reward the first wrap instead of going around again he just keeps changing direction to go back the other way. I can get multiple wraps when shaping with food if I keep the reinforcement rate very high but the soon as I hold out a bit again he just keeps changing direction back and forth.
Try rewarding the 1st wrap for now, but reward it farther and farther towards the 2nd wrap -- once he starts anticipating the reward so deep into the 2nd wrap, he will find it easier to just complete the wrap rather as turn around even when you don’t reward (eventually) and then you can jackpot that. You can also for now only focus on one direction and come back to the other one only when he gets the multi-wraps.
I’ve been trying to teach Sammy cik&cap since we were in foundations class beginning of last year. We have never progressed past jumping 35 to 40cm height. He is just not getting the idea to collect. As soon as he has any speed/distance on the approach he goes very wide -- even just round a cone. He seems to understand now to drive to the obstacle and turn but doesn’t wrap -- he goes very wide. If we start close he does nice tight wraps and can do them fast. Also close multi wraps are nice & tight. How do I get him to collect and wrap tightly when he approaches with speed?
Yeah, with some dogs, you need to go very slowly and systematically add more&more distance, moving him farther by 15cm at the time… Redo (ask for a multi-wrap) for all that are too wide, reward for those tight on the 1st try already. You can help some by setting a toy at the wing at first or showing it over the bar to make him try harder.
Here is a video to give an idea of what I mean. See especially at 1.05 where we do a figure of 8
Oh, I knew what you meant, it’s not uncommon at all. You will need to progress slower than that, you can’t expect him to be tight on such a wide spread figure 8 if he is wide even on cone sends from half of a meter… So I still think you’ll need to go more gradually that that, adding 15cm at the time for cone sends, redoing all the wide ones and rewarding the good ones. There were some good ones in between, so he can do it, you just need to proceed gradually enough.
Ok, thanks! I’ll keep working at it as you suggest!! 🙂
I think we are starting to make some progress at last!
Getting more and more distance with sends to the cone and we even tried a foundations sequence yesterday.
Great job with the sequence and beautiful wraps on a cone!!! Looks like you can try low bars next!
Yay!! Thank you!
Hi Silvia 🙂
Have a quick question on part of the training of cik & cap if you don’t mind?
I’ve heard opinions from online students of yours that rather than concentrating on how soon the dog is landing *after* the jump while training cik/cap that if you pay more attention to them stepping in close to the jump *before* taking it then that will automatically take care of the landing as well. Do you agree with this thought?
I’m working on really simplifying criteria for my over-thinker so that she can run faster and have more fun rather than thinking/worrying so much! As I’ve been working with my BC girl on learning her turns I’ve been struggling to maintain the collection through the turn for as long as we’ve been trying to train it as we’ve been “stuck” at 4″-8″ bars due to the understanding of the tightness/collection always falling apart on us. She’s not super drivey and confident like some BCs but she loves to train if I can keep the pressure off and make things really simple for her. She loves the game but starts to worry and looses enthusiasm quickly if I can’t figure out how to set her up for success. I’ve found she is doing much better over low bars now that I’ve set a foot target mat under the wing/jump as I think it clarifies criteria for her (collect to hit mat) but just wasn’t sure if I’ve been looking for and rewarding the wrong component of the cik/cap behavior as for the most part I’ve been concentrating on how soon/close she lands *after* the jump.
Of course, the landing is determined by the take off, so your focus is always a take off -- and the landing is just a result of it. That’s why it’s easier to get tight turns when you’re on the take off vs. landing side.
Thanks Silvia!! Not sure how but apparently I have NEVER realized that detail of the training until I started hearing them mention it here and there. My poor girl, no wonder we’ve had such difficulty figuring this thing out! Thanks a ton!! 😀
i have a question about cik/cap, maybe its waaay to stupid and i know im doing something wrong here but cant just figure it out:
Both muy dogs will go for the back of the pole/tree/bottle/etc and just do a step to the right or left and then just go back and again, they just wont try to circle the object. they can do it with wider trees were they must complete the circle…
I find it weird becuase they both know hoy to spin, and do a figure 8 between my legs… i just do not know why they keep yos doing like a tap dance behind the pole
You mean when you are still shaping it? Or on sends? I would help them more with a reward placement to help them complete the wrap + do plenty of multi-wraps to help them see it’s about circling the object.
Shaping it, I want to avoid too much luring mostly because my pit will not put attention to what she is doing and will only focus on the food.
They start and do half of a circle, then the other way, 2 or 3 times then they will go stand behind the object looking at me and just move their head and front paws to the right and left of the object.
I tried to click and put the treat in from of me so they have to actually pass the object but then they will go back again and do the left right dance.
I know it’s me because they are both doing it ( or maybe they are coping each other since I train them together)
Try to click as they go around the object and then to reward, toss a treat a couple of steps further in the circle as they would normally go. You can even click for those two steps then and toss a treat even further -- it’s cheating a bit, but as soon as they see the treats will keep coming in front of them as long as they keep circling, things will get much easier. Jackpot for bypassing you as that’s the hardest part.