O.k., things are getting somewhat more complicated now! Now that you mastered the serpentine, we'll look into other options with that set up too, but first, let's train some of
1. out/around/back
Push the dog on the other side of the jump by stepping with your left foot if the dog is on your left side towards the left wing/stanchion (and the opposite), saying your verbal and rewarding after he takes the jump. Every next try, help somewhat less on the take off side and move more on the landing side - see the video. This is again the question of commitment: the dog should understand to take the jump you showed even if you are already moving away already (helps in serpentines too!)
2. serpentine vs. threadle vs. pushes
Now let's try two pushes in a row on serpentine setting. If that goes well, you can try a threadle too, using your collection body language, together with cik/cap before the dog takes the jump and then "come" as soon as his front feet hit the ground - rewarding from your hand for coming to you. Once that goes well, try two in a row: when the dog comes to hand, don't reward but cue cik/cap for the next jump and then reward the "come".
Once you can do two pushes or threadles in a row, try three. And if you manage to do three, you can even try four! It's harder for every next jump, so make sure you progress slowly so that the dog is mostly successful. Start with a wrap to tunnel to have good speed. Mix in some serpentines too to keep them attentive to your body language and make sure, you train them both ways, so that the dog exits the tunnel on your side of the jump sometimes and sometimes on the other. The pushes and the threadles, sometimes do with the dog on the left, sometimes on the right.
Don't worry to master it in 2 weeks, it takes more than that, but do try to do some of this.
3. sequence: a little more complicated this time, so again, run it in parts and definitely walk it several times first, rehearsing your body language AND when to say what! - It gets complicated now as it includes everything we learned so far (wraps, extension, sends, serpentines, out/back/push).
Let's start with a wrap to the tunnel, then blind or front cross when the dog is in a tunnel, show 3 (you can call it "right" if the dogs knows directionals), cue collection (front cross) and use "cap" for 4, then 5 is "cik", send to tunnel and cue extension for 7 (meaning: RUN!), push for 8 (say "out/back/push"), RUN for 9, wrap 10, push/out/back for 12 and handle 13 as a straight line (it's a serpentine from 12 to 13). Have fun!
And here is my video of the sequence without 10 and 11, I completely forgot that part! Looks like I should be printing the courses out too! But I guess it can help some anyway, I also included serpentine, threadle and pushes, I hope I got that part right! 🙂
Hi Silvia,
We worked on our new “push” command tonight and then back to serps with parallel jumps. I did a bit of sequencing too and added some “choices” as per your suggestion when we were discussing Rue’s stress. I think I’m just not indicating the middle serp jump well when it’s a push off of me to the jump. I can feel it when it’s right and when it’s wrong, just need to get that better. I thought she handled the back-sides well, but might still need more independence from me?!
I will do the numbered sequence you gave us another day 🙂
Kristin
Wow! some nice serps! and weaves! and energy!
Yeap, the pushes are going great! Try 3 in a row now: if you can do it, then they’re independent enough! 🙂 You can slowly add even more obstacles around, to make sure she doesn’t mind it. I can imagine this can be stressful if not used to it, but I always train on full set up (as I have dogs of different levels and don’t move the equipment around in between), so they get used to many obstacles around already in those basic exercises. For serpentines, I think the most important thing is you stay close to the jumps. When you do, she is taking the jumps beautifully, but when you are too far, she pulls after you, not seeing the jump at all. I remember she had a tendency to do that in handling class too, so definitely something to work on, maybe even open the serpentine line a little bit for her to see the jumps better and search for them more even when you’re not right there.
Great, thanks! Open the serp you mean by angling the jumps again? This was our first time trying it on the straight jumps. It’s funny, when we approach a serp straight on as in if we approach the first jump perpendicular instead of parallel like in this set up, she reads serps perfectly. Like in this video from May
I wonder what I’m doing differently, or if it’s just that she’s in chase mode out of the tunnel and not searching for jumps unless I’m right there. Or maybe my shoulders need to be more open and not just running straight.
Yep, I will continue to keep more obstacles up. Funny I was making it easier for her on purpose by taking away the choices. Something tells me that I’ve found my answer….need to “stress” her a bit more at home where she’s more comfortable.
She’s funny b/c I can see her lil’ eyeballs scanning for equipment. Even when I was just doing the pushes on that one jump in the beginning…she found the weaves and the tunnel with her eyes. My other dog is much more handler focused whereas Rue is always searching. She is a “thinker”. A lot of that is her foundation too….I did a lot of shaping and “walk handling” where if I walk past an obstacle, she’s supposed to take it. It creates a lot more independence, but I can see where she might find it stressful when presented with a sea of jumps in a Jumpers course!
But even on this video, when you first do three jumps in a serpentine form, she misses the third one where she needs to jump away from you. Two is of course easier and when you FC in between it’s easier too, so I think she just needs more experience to read it more independently, so yes, I would angle the jumps slightly. More shoulder action would of course help and I do help some more with young dogs, but eventually, you want her to see it without much help.
And yes, even I am stressed when I see the sea of jumps in US jumpers courses! Ours have much less jumps and more tunnels 🙂 So we sure train with tunnels lying all around and never taking the obvious entry -- and you should train with many jumps around to get her used to that picture.
Ok thanks! I will go back to more angled jumps to help her. I just love this class. It forces me to go back to “basics” and we’ve certainly found quite a few holes!!
Hmm, I think Rue and I would much prefer your style of Jumpers courses! I hate having to stand still so much in our type with all of the pinwheels and such…..
Oh and congrats on your championship with La!!
Kristin
Pinwheels sure are no fun! We get them in beginners class, so I see them a lot lately with Le, can’t wait it’s over!
Nope, not at all. Pulled Rue from Jumpers today due to it having about 10 pinwheels….ick.
What do you think about her Standard run today? I can see that she didn’t get confidence until the seesaw….lots of stuff going on in the beginning there. At least that’s my take on it. She got 3rd place in a class of 50+ dogs 🙂 I thought her turns were great! We’re loving our kit/kats! Weaves could be faster and she threw an extra stride or something into her DW on the down ramp….not sure what that was….
Wow, congratulations!!! That sure was a great run! That send to a wrap after the see-saw with you running off gives you a completely different dog. Getting this type of running every time is sure worth of every effort! And yes, it looks like she flies an apex as if she is going for one hit but then changes her mind and gets another one in.
And wow, 10 pinwheels! We usually get one in beginners class and I always complain about it 🙂 You probably don’t get your entry fee back if you pull her off like that? Why don’t you then start with her anyway, but only do a straight line and run out to reward?
Thank you! She had 2 nice runs today. Even with several pinwheels in Jumpers 😉 At least this course allowed me to run more, so she liked it better than I thought she would yesterday. I’ve done the run a line and leave to reward her thing. Spent all of last summer doing 5-8 obstacles only. Made a big difference in her speed off the line 🙂 I have still done that in cases like yesterday recently, but honestly am experimenting a bit right now. Not totally convinced that it makes a difference any more?! Need more data collection….:)
That’s great!!! And yes, I don’t think she still really needs it, I was just thinking that if you paid for that run already, you could do some training instead.
Silvia, Kristin: what do you mean with pinwheels?
The three jumps set in a “star” form (each is set at 90 degrees from another) are called pinwheels in English. The direct translation of how we call them would be a star, if that helps.
Great run! Thanks for sharing -- Well done 🙂 Can’t wait til Gracie and i can do that
Here is a little video of working on push thrus. We are not ready for 3 and I don’t think I should start threadles with her until she gets better understanding of push thrus. Do you agree?
Thanks,
Marla
Sure, you can definitely work some threadles first and then come back to pushes. In order to do 3 of those, you will need to RUN though, no other way with the pushes! 🙂 I guess that’s why I love them so much!
When I start to run, she goes around the jump and misses it completely as she is following my motion. Suggestions for training that?
Here is video of the sequence. Today is the first time we tried it. We did one piece at a time and then here is a clip of the whole thing.
Thanks,
Marla
Great! What a nice wrap on 10! The one on 4 could be better though, if you changed to the right hand before she jumps. The rest went really well, but she might run faster if you ran more. To get her over the jump on pushes even when you move, try to move slowly at first, using a hand closest to the dog to cue the jump -- maybe keep a toy in it at first to get her attention and then show the jump with a hand: when you push her, the hand goes up, when you call her over the jump, the hand goes down and somewhat back so that your shoulder lowers and opens up towards her some -- they usually read it really well. Reward for taking the jump and move somewhat faster every next try.
Thank you. Will work on it and post more video soon.
Here is our homework. We have worked on around/back.
And here is a film of the little sequence.
Cool, but yes, 3 is really not cap for such a small dog. But 4 and 10 are, so you could say it there, she could be tighter there. -- Just the little details of course, she is sure doing great!!! How old is she now?
She turned 1 year monday in last week 🙂
I think she need some more tunnel drive. Need some drive from 10 to 11.
Happy birthday! 🙂 She is sure well trained for such a young dog, no problems with sequencing, we just need to fix those contacts. Tunnel drive is always good to have yes, but she was pulling really well into straight tunnels -- is it just curved ones that are problematic? If so, you could do some more straight ones and then curve them slowly.
Yes it’s only into curved tunnels. She has slipped in it some times. I will try to do starights and curve them slowly.
Hello Silvia and classmates,
I have worked on lesson 5 only a couple of times, and both times, I had no video. The ‘around/out’ is going very well for us, but we’ve practiced it before. Maia and I do have to work a lot more on threadles however.
Here is a video from today’s session: weaves, the bang game and ‘come to hand’.
The weaves are coming along nicely I think. In this video you can see the crazy distarctions I do with her. Since this class has started and I introduced the channel weaves to her, she is getting much, much better at her weaves and staying in them. The only thing I am finding, is that she shoots out of them and goes straight in competitions and makes a very wide turn back to me. I have to really call her loudly for her to turn back to me and not go staight.
The bang game: she does not like this game too much. In trials she does ok with the teeter. She’s always been timid with the noise of if however, so I hope that this game will make her like it a bit better. I am having trouble with having her face the bottom of the teeter with this game. You can see in the video that she is sideways a lot or backwards.
The ‘come to hand’: we really need a lot of work on this. She is blind crossing me a lot lately, even if my hand is out. So I think I need to do a lot more of this kind of training. I would eventually like to learn the blind cross however -- will this be something you will be teaching us in this class or in another class? or can I take a private lesson?
The weaves sure look great! Maybe it’s time to start rewarding from your hand. That will take a problem of shooting out of weaves away, but it will for a while make her more prone to pulling out. But that’s just something you need to work through and it looks as it’s time to do it as she is staying in so nicely now. Another thing you might want to proof her for though is crowding her. Being right there with her, doing lots of hands movements and sudden stops/shoulder turns etc. -- that often distracts them even more as being far away.
I’m not sure I understand your see-saw question as on a video, it seems to me like you are on purpose bringing her sideways to get her jump on? If you want just front paws and facing the end, then bring her to it from in front and stand so close that she can’t go to the side.
For come to hand, don’t forget to actually call her by her name or a specific word that means to come to hand -- just the hand out might not get enough of attention, you need to redirect her attention from obstacles to you by calling her first. You can start practising blind crosses already now, as she is in a tunnel, just for you to get a feel of it. I usually start with them when the dog is in a tunnel, weaves or A-frame as it’s the easiest and only then on jumps. It’s actually very easy, if only you trust the dog and can get ahead enough for them to easily see a change of a hand. Later on, you can also do them on tighter courses, but that’s how I start with them. We’ll do some in October handling class, I think you said you’re joining it?
Yes, I will be joining the handling class in October. I’m making my friend that owns the agility field that I use to practice, keep her equipment out for me until the class is over 😉 -- she usually stores it for the winter by mid October. I am planning on clearing a section of her field all winter and having some jumps, tunnels, weaves and my DW out all winter to practice.
So, I took your advice from yesterday and practiced crowding Maia in the weaves. She did fine until I started to do turns -- then she came out, as seen in the video. So I will have to work on that a lot more with her.
I also did the sequence with her. I still forgot a couple of times where I was going, even though I walked it and broke it down :/ We still have a way to go with getting the turns tighter but she does seem to understand what the verbals mean: cik vs cap vs around. This was the first time we ran this sequence. I have not tried the threadles/serps/pushes sequence yet.
Nice multi wraps! And no, don’t reward when she goes around if you say cik, it’s important she knows cik is always taking the jump in the normal direction (IF you don’t say around first of course!). Also, practise moving parallel to the jump after you send her out, that’s usually the hardest part as they like to pull after you without taking the jump -- but you definitely need to be able to move if you want to do 3 or 4 pushes in a row!
On 5, there is no doubt turning left in better: it’s less of a turn AND it’s shorter line AND it’s less risky for a wrong entry, so I think left wins easily. Also, 4 could be tighter if you said cap -- especially as you were trained for those late front crosses 🙂 And I think it would also prevent refusals. No problems with the rest, very nice around on 12 even with you moving, very good commitment.
Hello Silvia,
Here is our 2nd session on serpentines. I’d like to have your comments to be sure I’m in the good way!
Thanks
Céline
Great job! You get really nice, tight straight line (like the one before the last one) when you don’t overhandle things. You sometimes wait too long on a first jump and then get behind her and she curls into you (like the last line) and then a straight line is lost, so make sure you are always in front (you could stay on the other side for the last line on a video, that would allow you to be further ahead), she can do it. Great job!
Hi, with the push/out/around -- do we just use one word regardless of what side we want them to go around (is it just body language that lets them know?)
Also, I’m really unsure about when we should use different hands. I think i only use the inside hand. When do i need to vary this? How does it help? Would you mind telling me a bit about this 🙂 🙂
Yes, I only have one word for around and it’s always around the jump that is in my direction, never turning away from me. I use the inside hand for cuing jumps in a straight line or serpentines or arounds and also before rear crosses, but I use a low opposite arm to precue a front cross and cue a collection. The idea behind it is that opposite hand shows my front to them and front always means collection. It warns them I’m doing a front cross next and that’s my inside arm for the following sequence.
Also, how far apart should we put the jumps in a serpentine?
I guess about two steps for jumps with wings, somewhat more for wingless jumps.
Hi Silvia, Classmates,
Here a video with some mixed lesson 3,4,5 stuff and some contact work.
I’m still a bit struggling with the Serpentine, so no pushes or threadles yet for us. But as you can see we are making progress with the Serpentine too (maybe since Keen is a Serpentine herself now, with her split tongue ;-)). I do not have a “jump” command yet, since Keen is not jumping yet. Should that make it harder? I’m thinking of going slow with this and only start training it more extensive once she starts jumping. What do you think?
On the seesaw I added the 2on2off. Yes, Keen lays down for the 2on2off. I had numerous discussions about this (you can ask Tamara ;-)) and I still stick to the down position. You will see that I’m not consequent in asking a full down (head on the ground). I’m normally much more consequent but Keen made me careful. You will see her grab grass the one time that I do not reward. I really want to avoid her wandering off like she did before and that makes me reward sometimes even when I’m not 100% satisfied.
I was really pleased with the first “out”session and the first part of the new sequence. And….with the running contacts! I did not cheat, I did not cut the bad one’s. 😉
I still have problems with the send. You will see it in the sequence work (first cap). Even towards the tunnel. She has much more speed coming out than going in. I’m clicking the entrance now. In the Serpentine part I even clicked and did not reward but ran off for the jumps. I NEVER do that, I know it’s against all “shaping” theories but it just felt the correct thing to do…
It’s a consistent problem, all the dogs I ‘ve trained for agility have problems with sends and commits. That’s why I really wanted to teach Keen the cik and cap. But again, it seems to be hard for me. Do you have some more tips??
Yeap, serpentines, threadles and especially 3 outs in a row are definitely harder with no bars, so yes, you can wait some before taking it further. What you can do is training out on one jump, adding parallel movement too to work on commitment. But the serpentine is actually going really well already. For driving into the tunnel and wraps more, I would click for pulling in and rewarding immediately after. Play lots of “want that ball -- get around that tree/pole/wing first” games for better sends. See-saw is going well, just don’t forget to use a release word for going off: click/beep is not a release… For DW, I’m guessing you are running her to food now? I would still work on extension some more as it’s hard to keep the behaviour after they add speed… That’s why I go for full speed right from the start because if not, you often need to retrain from zero after you get it… The sequence sure went great, you are just waiting at 4 too long and then can’t cue 5 well at first, but then do it really nicely after. Great job!
Thanks, Silvia! Yes, I have been using food for the DW. I know you are convinced that speed is crucial and I expected your comment. 😉 But like you say in your training phylosophy sometimes you need to follow your own intuition… And that’s what I did. At this moment I have a lot of confidence in what Keen and I are doing. Maybe it will turn out wrong but at least I tried it. The last few tries on the video are with a stationary ball. Her speed is much better with the ball and she extends more. But not like you would like to see it, I do understand.
Yep, I know I was waiting too long at 4, my typical mistake. Probably one of the causes for not commiting too! I always wait for them anyway. 😉 And when I’m stationary because I’m waiting it takes ages before I move again, I’m a very slow starter. I think I need to take a handling course on day. 😉
Sure, you can try what it gives you! And yes, to get the commitment, you definitely need to challenge them with leaving early -- or they never learn!
QUESTION! I’m almost ready to post a video, but I’m a little confused with the difference in the words you used to cue Serpentines vs Threadles.
for Serpentines I think the difference is you DON’T call the dog to you in between jumps, but I can’t hear if you just say “hap?” your jumping word to jump over without collecting vs ‘cap?” your collection & wrap word to take the jump without coming back to your side.
I’ve watched the video and can see the difference, but am not understanding the diagrams or hearing the word difference when you cue it.
Sorry!
Yes, for serpentines I only say “hop”, my extension jump cue. For threadles, I use cik/cap, my collection cue to tell her to land close to the wing, followed by Bu, the name of the dog, meaning to come to hand. Hope that helps some.
It’s me again!
Here is our complete (and 1st) session on the sequence we had this evening. I had so much fun with my little partner !
What do you think?
Thank you
Céline
Great job! Some little details: keep working on independance on out so that you don’t need to turn towards her to get her over the jump as that will allow you to move to the next spot earlier: practice parallel movements, without turning towards her. For blind crossing you without you cueing it (to take that jump or the other tunnel at the end), stop and redo, she needs to know it’s important to follow your hands and not just take obstacles she thinks are right. And on 4, you can practice trusting her more, not going too far with her and changing hands sooner (before she jumps). -- But those are just little details, you are both doing really GREAT!