O.k., things are getting somewhat more complicated now! Now that you mastered the serpentine, we'll look into other options with that set up too, but first, let's train some of
1. out/around/back
Push the dog on the other side of the jump by stepping with your left foot if the dog is on your left side towards the left wing/stanchion (and the opposite), saying your verbal and rewarding after he takes the jump. Every next try, help somewhat less on the take off side and move more on the landing side - see the video. This is again the question of commitment: the dog should understand to take the jump you showed even if you are already moving away already (helps in serpentines too!)
2. serpentine vs. threadle vs. pushes
Now let's try two pushes in a row on serpentine setting. If that goes well, you can try a threadle too, using your collection body language, together with cik/cap before the dog takes the jump and then "come" as soon as his front feet hit the ground - rewarding from your hand for coming to you. Once that goes well, try two in a row: when the dog comes to hand, don't reward but cue cik/cap for the next jump and then reward the "come".
Once you can do two pushes or threadles in a row, try three. And if you manage to do three, you can even try four! It's harder for every next jump, so make sure you progress slowly so that the dog is mostly successful. Start with a wrap to tunnel to have good speed. Mix in some serpentines too to keep them attentive to your body language and make sure, you train them both ways, so that the dog exits the tunnel on your side of the jump sometimes and sometimes on the other. The pushes and the threadles, sometimes do with the dog on the left, sometimes on the right.
Don't worry to master it in 2 weeks, it takes more than that, but do try to do some of this.
3. sequence: a little more complicated this time, so again, run it in parts and definitely walk it several times first, rehearsing your body language AND when to say what! - It gets complicated now as it includes everything we learned so far (wraps, extension, sends, serpentines, out/back/push).
Let's start with a wrap to the tunnel, then blind or front cross when the dog is in a tunnel, show 3 (you can call it "right" if the dogs knows directionals), cue collection (front cross) and use "cap" for 4, then 5 is "cik", send to tunnel and cue extension for 7 (meaning: RUN!), push for 8 (say "out/back/push"), RUN for 9, wrap 10, push/out/back for 12 and handle 13 as a straight line (it's a serpentine from 12 to 13). Have fun!
And here is my video of the sequence without 10 and 11, I completely forgot that part! Looks like I should be printing the courses out too! But I guess it can help some anyway, I also included serpentine, threadle and pushes, I hope I got that part right! 🙂
I know this is minor but can we use the dog’s name instead of ‘come’ or ‘here’.
Of course! 🙂
Wow, It looks like so much fun, lesson 5! It will be hard because we didn’t even get to the serpentine like that but we will take our time! 😀
One question about your verbal cue in a serpentine: (like in lesson 4) I say : ” voor-uit (with a very long o) ” which means ” go forward” when the jumps are normal (like the last video I’ve posted) but when I turn the jumps more and more should I still say that or should I say: ” Hoog ” which means ” jump” ? (because she has to turn her body a little bit)
Yeap, maybe “jump” would be better then.
Hi Silvia,
This looks like fun! What is the cue you are using to push the dog around the back side of the jump? And is it possible to see a video of the sequence? I’m not very good at reading courses & descriptions 🙂 so your videos help so much & make it much clearer! I guess I’m much more of a visual learner 🙂
Thanks!
Well, I use “okrog”, that would be Slovenian for “around” 🙂 Most people is Europe use “out”, but in US “out” is usually used for something else, so I think they mostly use push or back. I couldn’t make a video as I’m not home, so I used old videos, I can set a sequence and send when I get home end of this week.
Good luck, Silvia and -- have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m at the sea-side 🙂
I´m just training my timing: cik & cap always too late, wishes always too early………….sorry, please forget it.
Oh, that would be great to see a video of the sequence--Thank you! Until then Elsa & I have lots of work to do with the straight lines, serpentines, & outs… 🙂 I confess that I like working the sequences more because I don’t have to run as fast when I’m on the inside of all the obstacles 🙂 it’s hard to keep up with Elsa running in a straight line! 🙂
Thanks again!!
Just take an advantage of the tunnel to get ahead after you send her in! 🙂
LOL! Kathy, I feel the same way. It’s so fun, but sometimes I’m not looking forward to running fast ;)! I’ve been trying to do as Silvia suggests here and it does make a big difference.
Kristin
Can you explain why it wouldn’t just be another situation to use cik&cap instead of needing another word “around”? I’m confused. Is it because it’s not a send?
Kristin
We’re talking about pushing the dog on the other side of the jump -- see my video. I use cik&cap for threadles, but for pushes I need another word that tells them to take the jump from the other side. -- Maybe not that essential on US courses, but we see it A LOT and it helps A LOT if the dog has some independence on it.
We are seeing it more and more in the US. In Daisy Peels website you can download courses and her instructions on them. There are a lot of instances where you have to ‘send to the back of a jump’ or a ‘push’. Also, in our regional trials there are ‘European’ courses and they all have pushes. I am glad you are teaching them side by side with serps and threadles so the dogs understand the differences.
Hehe! Ann…that’s my class you are talking about. Funny. I know those courses. Don’t see a lot of the back side jumps in our local AKC trials, but they are starting to pop up. I’m going to enter a USDAA trial next month and enter the International Handler Courses…I hear they are a load of fun. Probably going to be glad I took Daisy’s class.
Kristin, I think you will have fun. Tell us how it goes.
Ann
Yes, I think it really helps with their understanding. And as I wrote in a reply to Kristin: it pretty much covers all the possible options of what you might see on a course 🙂
Funny…I had to do this in class today!!! Thanks. We are starting to see it more and more here so I want to make sure I’m thinking correctly. Maybe it just seemed like another cik&cap because I’m not using bars yet with Da Vinci so cik&cap seems more like “go wrap that wing” at this point. Since I had to do this push with Callie today actually jumping, I can see it now. I really had to step out and push to cue the back side of the jump which then had her landing on top of me for a FC and it was quite hard to get to the next obstacle. If she knew how to do this, I could have “handled” less and been in a better position to keep moving on course. Am I thinking correctly here? Think I get it now.
You’re right, it looks similar to cik&cap before you put the bars up. That’s why I only teach it after I already have bars on the jump -- I think you can use them with Da Vinci now too. And yes, if the dog knows it, things get much easier. For example, see jumps no. 2 and 4 of the course from WC starting at 0:40: looks pretty easy right -- with good “out”. Imagine how hard would it be if I needed to help on take off side to get to where I needed to get on landing side:
Actually, both runs on this video are just a combination of what we are learning here: it’s either a wrap, a serpentine, an out, a threadle or a straight line. There is no much left after you master all that 🙂 Bu doesn’t have the ground speed to win on straight lines, but she is the queen of wraps, serpentines, threadles and outs and had best time in both those two runs (on World Championships!). It’s really amazing how important tight lines are.
Hi. Another video (but it’s not about lesson 5, rather lesson 2), but thourght I would post it in our newest lesson. We are doing multiwraps, figure-8 and the course from 2. lesson (added some multiwraps and variations of this course). I try to tell him when he is to wide by giving him another multiwrap, but some times I miss it -- but we are trying our best:
Great! Really nice progress from one video to another!!! GREAT job with the sequence! Some of his wraps are really impressive and some are still somewhat wide, usually to the right, so do some more multi wraps to the right, together with some spinning and stretching (holding his hips and having him stretch by getting a treat you hold at his hip). But thinking while running sure seems much easier for him now as it did at first! And did I see right: no bars!!!
Thank you. I do agree with your observation on his right turns. We’ll try those tricks to improve. An Yes! No bars 😀
Here is our first go with the exercises from lesson no. 5, but only serpentines and outs. Our major problem is me being too slow to show him the right direction -- we can only make 1½ outs.
Yeap, the critical point for pushes is a nice, determined step you do at 2:10 -- and don’t do on first tries on those two jumps. You can do that step even a little bit earlier and then if you want to do the next out, then you need to leave immediately: don’t wait for him to go around your leg, just give him direction and leave. Maybe it’s too early for the next out, but do try to move some on the landing side to get him used to it and take the jump anyway instead of pulling off after you.
Also, try to be further along the line also for serpentines so that you can handle it more like a straight line and he stays closer to the line. He is going in and out now and does two strides in between 1st and 2nd jump and three between 2nd and 3rd as you’re even further back. If you see Bu’s video, you’ll see she does only 1 stride in between -- even though she is short strided for a BC -- but has a tighter line -- and I think you can only get it by being in front.
Here is our video from 2. and 3. session. We are doing the course from lesson 4 and also still working on serpentines and outs. He had quite a hard time with the serpentines with me in front, so I angled the jumps. Outs are still in progress too.
He has a few knocked bars; the ones in diffucult handling I don’t pay much attention to, and neither when he slightly touches the wings, but I’ll try to repeat mp, when the juthe knocked bars is caused to lack of focus.
It was a good idea to angle the jumps some again -- I think you need to make them straight very slowly now, allowing him to be mostly successful and you to run without him being too much in a hurry to not take the middle jump. The sequence went well too, the beginning wrap is perfect, so maybe you can do some multi-wraps on 4 and 6 too, he could be tighter there. On 6, a front cross would help for tightness too.
Thanks. I’ll try that 😉
Silvia, I’m not sure if I’ve missed something with cik & cap or we just haven’t gotten there yet. All of the previous lessons have the handler located between the dog and the jump stanchion when we give the cik or cap verbal cue, so the dog turns toward the handler. For lesson 5, Bree already has an around cue for the back of a jump, and this was strengthened nicely when we cued cik & cap from the landing side a few lessons ago. What I’m not sure about is training cik & cap in the way that will essentially be a rear cross, with the dog turning away from the handler. Will we get to that or should I be able to adapt something we’ve already done?
Thanks, Carol
And I have also another question.
Why you use a back/out for jump number 8?
Because I was thinking to use Cik here.
I had an agility seminar last weekend and I had a lot of difficulties to chose if I have to use the back/out cue or a Cik/Cap sending from de landing side.
What it will make you choose more back/out cue than the Cik/Cap cue?
Thanks, Justine
That’s a good question, but the answer depends on where I am. If I’m over the plane of jump 8, then I wouldn’t say back: but as I probably wouldn’t go that far in this situation, I would say back to push them on the correct side. If I only said cik and wouldn’t go deep enough, they would take 8 from wrong side. Back would fix that. If we went to 12 after 8, then I would say back-cik, but as there is not much of a turn to the tunnel and the distance is big, I wouldn’t say it (maybe with Bi, but definitely not La or Bu). So in some situations (like going from 8 to 12), I will say both, but when one is not really completely back (if I’m so close to 8 that the dog doesn’t need to push out on her own) or completely cik (as the tunnel is so far) I might left that one out.
Ok, thanks!
If I have understood it depend on my dog and where I am after my dog takes the jump 7.
Sorry I have try to explain that in english, but it’s very difficult.
Pour la séquence, je pense pouvoir me trouver entre le saut 7 et le saut 8 au moment ou mon chien atterrira après le saut 8. Je pensais donc à ce moment, me retourner face à mon chien et lui dire Cik Cik Cik avec une indication de ma main gauche pour lui faire comprendre que je veux qu’elle passe derrière mon dos.
J’ai peur que si je lui dit juste “out” pour le saut 8, qu’elle saute en biais et qu’elle fasse un large virage pour prendre le tunnel.
I don’t have try for now, so I will try it and see the differents options. ^_^
Justine,
Je ne comprends pas bien la différence entre le threadles et le pushes. Est-ce que tu pourrais me l’expliquer?
Est-ce que je suis correcte pour ces ordres:
serpentine: cik&cap
threadles: out
mais comment tu fais pour que le chien s’ecarte de toi, te tourne presque le dos pour aller sauter l’obstacle? y a-t-il un autre ordre?
merci
celine
On threadles, the dog jumps away from you (on cik) and comes to your hand (on come) and on pushes, you push the dog out so that he jumps towards you. So on serpentines, you only use “jump” cue, on threadles “cik/cap” + “come” and on pushes “out/push”. You push the dog out by stepping towards the wing and saying out -- see my video, I show it with Le. For turning away from me, I use left/right.
Excuse moi de ne pas t’avoir répondu plus tôt Céline.
J’ai été vraiment très occupée ces derniers temps.
Donc pour expliquer….
La serpentine le chien va prendre le premier saut en s’éloignant de toi, puis le deuxième en revenant vers toi et pour finir le troisième en s’éloignant de toi. Pour le chien c’est comme un ligne droite alors tu dois juste lui dire saute, saute, saute.
Les threadles c’est quand le chien prend le premier saut en s’éloignant de toi, mais comme il doit revenir entre les deux sauts pour pouvoir prendre le deuxième saut à nouveau en s’éloignant de toi, tu va utiliser l’ordre Cik/Cap pour l’aider et lui indiquer de revenir entre les deux saut. Pareil pour le 3 ème saut.
Pour les pushes ou “out” tu va pousser le chien pour qu’il prenne le saut par derrière et donc en revenant contre toi, tu va ensuite le re-pousser pour qu’il prenne le saut 2 par derrière et pareil pour le saut 3. Pour cet exercice tu va apprendre à ton chien le mot “out” (ou ce que tu voudras). Par la suite il associera le mot “out” à je dois prendre le saut par derrière, mais au début pour lui apprendre tu dois le faire progressivement, comme dans la vidéo de Silvia.
Si tu a encore des questions n’hésite pas, je me ferais un plaisir de te répondre ^^
Now I don’t understand… Why would you want her to go behind your back between 7 and 8? I kept Bi on my right hand the whole time and it worked o.k. even though she is a long jumping dog… But maybe you can run both variations and post it here and we’ll see what works best for your dog.
Yes it’s what I want to do, trying both and show you on video here 😉
You’re right, I don’t train rear crosses at all… I also never do them in foundation class -- and then just start using them later on, it’s not a problem at all if the dog knows body language well -- and by then, they know verbal direction enough too so it’s really easy. If you wish, I can throw in some in the next lesson, but as I said, I normally don’t do them at all in foundation class.
Perhaps my body language isn’t correct, or maybe Bree doesn’t know the verbal well enough. She seems to understand when I’m doing a simple exercise, but when running a course she sometimes looks around wondering what to do. If it wouldn’t be disruptive to what you have planned, I’d be grateful for a wee bit of this in the next lesson. Many thanks, Carol
Maybe you just need to build a course around a simple exercise: start with a simple exercise, then do the same thing but start her one obstacle further back, then two, three… -- change the sequence some, run a mirror sequence etc.
Hi, We pieced the sequence for Lesson #5 together after a couple of days on working on the basics. He lost some commitment to his cip/cik during the course of figuring out the out/thrus. No worries as I never thought he’d be able to do something like this in such a short time. In this particular sequence I didn’t fuss about the bar as he doesn’t tend to knock them and it was my fault. The out at #12 happened to be correct, but really we were having a big goof up. I think Nero was thinking “when in doubt--do what we’ve been working on that last few days”. Anyways it’ll help me to get feedback now rather than later. I was gone for a week for #4 lessons and will miss in this time as well.
Nancy and Nero
PS--We’ve been doing a lot of work on sheep lately and all is going well there.
Hm, I’m just uploading my run and seeing yours I realized I actually skipped one part, huh… Looks like I should be printing out the courses too! 🙂 Anyway, no problems with the beginning of the sequence. Then on 4, you move too far back and too far right to be on a good place to cue 5. You need to stay very close to 5 (see my video) -- only move to the first stanchion of 4 to tell him better where 5 is, that was a real surprise for him and yes, that’s also why he knocked it -- no big deal if he usually doesn’t. Then you’re very late saying out for 8, but your body language does the job here. Then nice send to tunnel and then yes, he is right and you’re wrong, but as I wrote to Inge: I don’t reward that. Even if calling him to left hand would be a better idea: if you called to right hand, he needs to respect that, I don’t reward ignoring the body language.
Silvia -- will you be including how to proceed with see-saw training in the last lesson? Please do! If not, a small how-to summary perhaps?
Nicole & Sen
Yes, we’ll finish it in the last session, but you can start with jumping on it with all 4 feet already now.
Hi Silvia,
What are you saying in the sequence between the tunnel and the second jump, just before you say cap?
And at the last part in the video doing serpentines? You only say one word?
Yesterday I tried the threadles. It didn’t get that well. I think he was confused, because till now I only practised the cik/cap with a whole wrap around the wing. So to be sure, saying cik before the jump, just after landing calling him to me with a ‘come’?
What he did was not landing so close to the wing and taking the second jump on the wrong side (When he has to do it that way, I called that a “round”, what means to me turn after the jump but don’t land to close to the wing)
Thx!
I’m saying right for second jump as it’s right for most dogs, but I could actually say cap with Bi (my body language is cuing cap on 2 already -- I needed collection there with Bi). In serpentines, I say “hop” = jump. Threadles are not easy, you can start with just one: say cik and then his name (as soon as you can without him dropping a bar), being static and rewarding for coming to your hand. Then slowly add more and more movement as you call him as it’s usually the movement that pushes them on the wrong side, but of course, you do need to move if you need to do 3 or 4 in a row… -- But add movement gradually, after he knows it’s about coming to hand without taking another jump when you call.
Thanks for posting the new video. I am having trouble with the threadles I think because I am too late saying his name. I kept stopping your video to see when you give the Bu verbal and it looks like you do it while he is in the air. Is this correct? I have been waiting until he lands and that is too late for him to come in thru the gap. I will post this weekend.
Yeah, you need to call as soon as possible, meaning as soon as you can without him dropping a bar. Also, see my answer to Tamara, you can also start without moving first to make him successful, have something to reward and then add motion gradually.
Hi Silvia,
I found the perfect training partner for us. It’s a Whippet mix girl!!! They are new to our agility group and the owner was very impressed with Buddy’s heeling and tricks and asked me to show her how to do trick training 😉 So, it’s a win/win situation! We will share the rental and practice together. Buddy loooves Lily and she is a wild and happy girl!! Perfect to loosen him up and get him more excited!! He is very picky and doesn’t get along with anyone.
I would like to keep working on foundations, since I didn’t get very far. 😉 Will you offer this class again, or just keep this one open? I didn’t see it in your list of new/upcoming classes? I will also register for more tricks, because I am stuck on a few things (mostly balance and how to get quicker response), and tricks was a huge turn around for us! 🙂 Thanks!
Jen
One more question: Should we let them play together? If so, before or after training? or in between exercises to give a break? Thanks.
Sounds great! I wouldn’t let them play too much, only maybe at the end, you can finish a session by doing something he doesn’t like that much and then reward by running to his girl friend and let them play some. And yes, there will be another Foundation class starting when this one ends, again with a discount for those who want to take it again.
That’s great news 🙂 A new girlfriend will make any boy happy!