And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Hi Silvia,
Here’s today session on the 41″ DW. It is the lowest reinforcement rate session I have ever had.
I was doing some yard work later in the afternoon. Spec comes up and drops a pine cone at my feet. I figured he could do a DW to ‘earn’ it. The little bugger did about 6 DW’s with about 3/4’s of the DW’s nicely done. Some times I threw the pine cone and sometimes he had to go over the jump to get it. Of course the camera was not on to record them:( Where should I go from here? Stay at this height? Go higher? Looking forward to your comments.
Let’s try this height again, but with straight approaches.
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the States.
Here is Spec on a 41″ DW with straight approaches. What do you think? Where to from here? Thank you for all your help.
Better. I would do some more sessions on this height with straight approaches to get more equal striding, he seems to be doing more adjustments as necessary now, I think 4 fully extended strides would make things much easier for him.
Will do. Thanks.
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Here is today’s session. Not a great reinforcement rate. Almost all straight approaches with a static toy after the jump. Spec appears to me to be doing something weird from the top ramp to the down ramp. Is this just him trying to figure things out and adjust his stride? Unless you say other wise I will stay at this height, and continue work on straight approaches.
Interesting. I originally suggested angled approaches as he had trouble fitting in 4 strides. But now, he is too high with 4 strides even with straight approaches. He is somewhat off balance the first session on that bouncy up ramp, but he is too high also on next two sessions and yes, tries to do some adjustments to still get in. I still think that 4 fully extended strides should be enough, based on how he was running before, but maybe with lower successful rate, his confidence is somewhat down… So if angled approaches still work, still try to throw in many of those, to keep the successful rate higher. It might help him extend more and be in with 4 strides on straight approaches.
Thanks Silvia. Do you think throwing the toy every so often might help, or should I just leave it static and switch back and forth between angled and straight approaches?
Sure, you can definitely try a thrown toy, it might help with the extension!
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
This is Spec’s latest and the session previous to it showing the full DW. In the latest video we did mostly straight approaches using wraps and sit/stays well back so Spec was at full speed when he got to the DW. Every so often would do an angled approach. Reward rate is up some.
Should I stay at this height and continue to work straight approaches or do something else?
Is it alright to start on lesson 5 with the turns off the plank(separate from the DW) or should I wait until Spec is at full height? I’ll be joining you in your next RC class to finish his DW.
The second video is private, so I only saw the first one. He is definitely understanding his job and trying very hard to get in, doing lots of adjustments. Maybe, you can indeed just try full height next as he is really not leapy and just needs to sort out his striding and maybe the easiest is to just sort it out for ever on full height. You can also start teaching turns away from the DW, sure.
Hi there Silvia and class mates.
We have had 2 days with very bad results.:-( Spy went into a complete hole because she could feel i was doing something different ie trying so hard to see hits correctly and if i did not reward she really felt it, But this morning was much better in the sence that she seemed positive again but as you will see from the video we got only FF hits. ( Video uncut) What i see is she was now flying over the second apex and i think this is what gave her the FF hits. Ok so the other day we got some nice BF but today only FF. I did not change the starting point or height of DW from our last post. Now what???
Thanks you so much.
Well, the good thing is that she is striding better now, with less adjustments on a down ramp, mostly coming lower and as a consequence, not overreaching so much. At this point, I would suggest going to the full height again as then low front feet hits will get harder -- as more height will take a little bit speed off and hitting with front-rear-front will get harder, so she might see the advantages of hind feet and hitting down ramp with front-hind-front-hind. Might give you some very over-reachy tries again, but hopefully mixed with some hind feet hits that you can jackpot too.
Hi Silvia, thank you, i will set up the DW at full height. I really hope i can see her hits correctly!!! 🙂 Thank you.
Alicia: When Tai and I were working through this, I found it was helpful to keep sessions really short -- maybe 5 or 6 reps. Then break and go back for another 5 or 6. Kept the attitude up for both of us.
Good luck!
Hi Anne. Thanks for the advice, funny we just came in and i was thinking exactly what you have just said above. I will keep them short thank you. i tried the full height DW this afternoon late and am losing faith in myself with seeing O-R hits!!!! My Spy sure is trying so hard but not getting the help she needs for her to get it right! I am trying so hard to look at zone only and i sometimes get it but was hopeless this last session, 1st back trying full DW, then Spy feels it and we all go down. Do you have any other ideas that helped you as i just dont know quite how to get it right now!!! I tried the vet tape too that silvia suggested but she did not like it, Spy is quite soft and sensitive. dont know if i must just keep trying that and let her get used to it. Did you just stop rewarding and only reward ones you where sure were in or did you still get it wrong at 1st and get better? At the moment i have very little faith i am going to get seeing it!!! Maybe i must slow down her run up and move the tunnel in that i am using to send her into as she still had maybe too much speed in order to hit ff-bf-ff-bf? Thank you.
Hi Silvia when i read my post after i posted it, it sounds like i am just talking to Anne, please that is not what i ment!!!! Thank you.
Seeing it does get easier… You can try less-speedy approaches too, but the thing is that she does have plenty of room for bf too in that first video of her overreach that you sent -- overreach means exactly that if striding normally, bf would hit perfectly, BUT they push them even further ahead and only hit the ground…
Alicia: Sorry for late reply…but yes, seeing got easier for sure with practice. I would talk or signal to the camera to document what I thought I saw…then afterwards compare that to the video. That helped me know whether I was right or wrong and build my confidence. Hope that helps.
Anne
Silvia, I lowered the DW to 4 foot and he did not have enough rear leg separation. Then put him on the low DW in hopes that it would remind him about separation. He did show more separation. I then lowered the AF to about one foot, he was not sure what to do at first, but he started getting separation with each run. Hopefully we can keep him “running” on the AF as we raise it up. Let me know when and how much to raise it.
His DWs look really great now! I hope you jackpotted 1:12 and 1:21 too, those were great too! On an A-frame, he seems to be trying to get really low, as on a DW -- as you actually don’t want him that low on an A-frame, raise it somewhat more to make it look more like an A-frame: somewhat lower as in the beginning of the video, but higher as you have it set at the end, let’s hope he keeps separation there. But I would actually focus on a DW more for now, work on raising that one first and then go back to an A-frame to not practice too many higher A-frame hits before getting nice and low DW hits.
Hi Silvia:
Here’s an update on Bender’s RC.
A Frame: Last week we started putting it in sequences and it is going really well. The first one seems to be abit high with not much rear feet separation but just like you say each one gets better and better! His striding looks really good. It is SO much fun to just run with him and not stop!!!! And no problem getting the up contact each time. He has been on 5 different Aframes now. Last weekend at the club’s practice match he just missed the first frame but the next 3 were nice and much deeper. I found out later that the Frame was 3″ below full height (5’6″) so maybe that is why he missed? Sorry I don’t have any video I will have to bring my camera to class now.
Dogwalk: On our home DW I started experimenting again with moving the exit jump but still keeping at least 50% as straight exits. He started offering the 4 hit pattern (F/R/F/R) on the down ramp but was still high. I anticpated less extension with the change but even when I went back to straight approaches he was not extending as far… I also think this had something to do with the new DWs he has been trying. Getting Bender used to new DWs is going to be a long process… I didn’t realize there were so many different variables -- all the new DW’s are inside, placed next to a wall, not much space at the end, different surfaces, one with slats, and different widths. Bender is not running in extension but in collection with very many short strides. On Gary’s DW (btw Delta is recovering well from her cruciate surgery in June and is back doing foundation agility drills!) it is 2″ narrower and after 4 sessions (over 2 months) Bender is just starting to get some extension. The good news is that he gets more confident each time. I have tried numerous set-ups but normally send to a tunnel and use a straight exit jump. On our Club DW -- he is doing much better and after 2 sessions is at 50% success. At the club practice match when running the Standard course his DW was great -- a high rear feet hit. I was so pleased!
So after some sessions on other DW’s here is a video of the session on our home DW. To get his speed and confidence back I used his favourite set-up -- sending to a tunnel and using a straight exit jump. Finally after 2 weeks he is showing extension again!
You will notice in #1, #2, #3, and #4 he does something weird with his first front hit -- I think he is only putting one foot down? I jackpotted #3 and #4 because he hit the contact with his front foot (which is rare) and then he brings his rear feet up right behind. It looks like he has to have his rear feet in! I should have jackpotted #6 as well -- since it was the same pattern. He seems to be in between 4 and 3 hits on the down ramp. I was so pleased that he also offered the Rear/Front/Rear pattern and seems to be driving more over the apex again with his rear feet and they are more split.
Shona and Bender
Yeap, dropping down one foot to prolong the stride and get in definitely means he is adjusting and trying to get in. I would still like him to be deeper though and might even play with lowering the DW again, just to see what you get there. I think I would lower it to half-height for a few sessions and see what that gives you, work some on lower hits there if they get more frequent there and then go back to full height quickly (maybe with one middle height first). Meantime, try to train as much as possible on different DWs and post a video if you ever get a chance to tape it, to see what exactly he is doing there. It will certainly get better with experience, but sounds like he might need some time… New A-frames are usually not a problem, but it’s of course good to do some of those too when on a DWs tour 🙂 Happy to hear that Delta is back to agility!!!
Hi Silvia:
I thought I should post this video first -- it is a session I did just before I read your comments. I was so pleased with the straight exits on the above video that I tried changing the exit jump again. The jump is 18 feet past the DW. I moved it 1, 2, and 3 feet to the right when I was running on that side and the same pattern to the left when I switched sides. I was really pleased with the results and I think it is one of the best sessions I have had at full height. I was especially pleased with #9 and #11.
Once I read your comments today, I went and lowered the DW to 30″ -- this DW doesn’t go any lower. Here is the video:
Wow, what a difference at this height! So nice to see some lower hits that I can really jackpot! I will do another session at this height tomorrow. Unfortunately I am running out of time trying to beat the winter weather that is coming and very soon this DW will be put away for the season 🙁
Shona and Bender
Great, those two sessions both look much better as the last one you posted! I especially like the variety of hits that you’re getting now (even dropping in one front foot -- I don’t remember seeing that before!) and of course the deepness, so yes, just try to fit some more sessions on a low DW now and then switch to the full height when the weather forces you into it 🙂
Thanks Silvia. I just got in from today’s session (same height) and Bender continued with the jackpots from yesterday!!!!!!! I agree it is so great to see the deeper hits. I am intrigued by his striding pattern. When he tries the 3 hit pattern -- rear/front/rear he is high and only earns a “reward”. But where he is now deeper and getting “jackpotted” -- is when he starts with the front feet (split over the apex) then split rear, then front with one in the contact followed up by nice split rear feet deeper in. He started offering this at full height as you can see from the November 24 video…..so nice to see the front foot being used. I also noticed at the lower height that he is more extended on the horizontal plank as well. I think this is the key for him as I watch the videos from the new DWs that we tried. On the new ones, he has many more strides on the horizontal plank since he is not extending. What he does on that plank and especially over the apex determines his striding. So I hope with more experience his confidence will increase and he will extend more and then he will be in. Do you think when I try new DWs and it doesn’t go well, I should lower it to get some confidence and extension?
Hopefully I can get a few more sessions in on this DW before the snow arrives. Then I will switch to the club DW (this is wood and can’t be lowered) which I can practice on 3 times a week throughout the winter. And I will also be busy with my DW tour.
Shona and Bender
Sounds great! And yeap, if you can lower the new DWs for him first, that would be perfect. I would still take an opportunity to train on different DWs when they can’t be lowered, but low new DWs is even better for his confidence. And yes, it’s normal that different striding over DW affects his contact performance. I had the same problem with Bu and Le at the beginning. It’s also normal front-rear-front takes him deeper as when they hit with rear first, it’s right after apex, while they normally hit further down if hitting with front feet.
What a difference one day makes!
First, it was much warmer today, so most of the snow melted (but it is coming back tomorrow according to the weather forcasts :/ )
Secondly, Maia’s contacts were great again today. I had a friend video for me. I had a jump on one end and a tunnel on the other and I would try to throw later, after her contact was complete.
It must be the snow, I don’t know what else it could be. But she has to get used to it, because this is where we will be training the RC until she is at full height and I can go indoors.
I also included her A-Frame from today and some footage from recent trials from her Gambler and Steeplechase runs (so no DW that we have to take)
Great A-frames and yes, nice DW again, it did look like the snow is the problem already then. I hope you can do few more sessions more like this and then maybe raise it some again.
Hi Silvia,
yesterday I was in our trainig center to work on RC. I did three sessions -- the first one was really good you can see it here
There was a jump just after the DW.
But the second one was really bad, there was a tunnel after the DW and she jumped mostly (or she did not adjust her striding) and she lost her hind feet separation. Do you mean she didn´t run full speed? It can be the tunnel what disturbs her? Before, we used the short straight tunnel and it was okay -- she run full speed for the ball which was after the tunnel. Any suggestion what to do? Maybe start with straight tunnel and gradually turn it?
Thank you for the answer.
The third part was good but there was a jump again….
Vendula
Yep, her strides are shorter when going for a tunnel. Maybe it was too close? If not, then yes, try the straight tunnel and then curve it gradually. To help her extend, try sending her to a jump to start with so that you can be in front of her on the contact and push more.
OK, so I tried the inside training option JUST TO BE SURE if it was an option or not. I think it is a failure….
As you can see in the video, I am using the longest available space. I can come a bit more towards the camera if I get more mats (but only about 1 m more). But (a) she seems quite distracted in this enviro and uncomfortable, and (b) she slows down and there is not so much I can do to try and speed her up as the space is so small. I can’t throw a toy as the floor is slippery without the mats. What do you think? I’m happy just to continue outside when possible.
I attach our pivot work too. I have 2 problems with this exercise -- managing her chaotic style, and seeing the position. I plan to get a mirror -- seems that the only ays I can see down there. Given her size its hard to be sure otherwise -- she must be exactly correct or it looks way out. You can get away with off positions with a bigger dog but not one this size.
About the chaos -- I just try to wait until the position is correct. Its ok with a perch but we have worked with one for a long time. I’m trying to fade it and you can see the flat perches here. She does not yet know the two words for each side. Would you suggest I continue with the perch until she does know that? and then go to the flat target like in the last videos?
Nicole & Sen
I think you are getting enough of beautiful positions to just continue like this, she seems to understand the postion really well. Running the plank doesn’t look so bad to me, but I can’t see well from this camera angle. But I think if you got mats all the way to the wall and then throw a toy to the wall, that should be o.k. I don’t see any slowing down on a plank?
On the plank she is OK, but she then just trots to the reward. Usually she charges there. Another issue might be we discourage them from running mad in the house because the floors are slippery -- so now I am being contradictory with asking her to do it!
I’ll try again. We are getting snow now so at least it will soon not be slippery outside, and easier to light
Hi Silvia, I’m first sending you video of Saga’s a-frame at competition height. overall I’m pleased. Let me know your thoughts.
I would like to see some more hind feet separation, but as long as she is in almost all the time, I would let it be for now and see if you get more separation as she gains confidence. Definitely jackpot it if you see it.
do you think I should lower the height to get more rear feet seperation?
I think you can try some more sessions on this height and see what’s the trend. You can also try less speedy approaches to see if that gives you less flying and more running.
Hi Silvia,
Over the last 2 weeks we’ve gone back down in height (and back up). Again, the issue isnt her understanding of the criteria (she just doesnt want to extend that last stride).
I’ve concluded that when we had issues its because her confidence on dw was low at that time. She seems to go through periods where she’ll have great confidence (then something will go wrong and we’ll struggle for days at a time). So, the good news is that her confidence is back and we’re again working are way back to full height. The interesting observation was when I let my other dog race her to the ball she offered the best hits (the last 2 clips in the video) and was really *running*. Only problem is my other dog always wins the race but Viper couldn’t care less.
I did go out an get a carpet target like you suggested. We’ve been working on shaping her to hit that but I havent put it on the dogwalk yet (I want to see how this latest session pans out once we reach full height again)
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee375/swiftdogsports/?action=view¤t=Nov25thcontacts.mp4
Tara
Wow, that sure looks great! I hope it stays that way this time! If not, definitely bring out your other dog for help 🙂
Here is video on saga’s 2nd and 3rd session at 31″. The second session, I threw the ball prior to releasing her. There is also a stride regulator on the ground to help her with the up contact. The third session, I have the toy in my hand which I give to her after the low jump when she hits correctly. You may also hear me mark the up contact with “good girl”. I think she needs the uglier approaches again but I’m trying hard to not change too much too soon. I think she might be a dog thats in between 4 & 5 hits. when she 4 hits she misses both the up & down contact but her stride looks the most natural and when she 5 hits its nice and deep, she just needs to work harder to adjust her stride. It looks like she’s adjusting near the second apex and on the down ramp. Is this where she should be? I plan to stay at this height and adjust approaches for the next few sessions unless you suggest otherwise.
PS. Twitch has been full extension girl with these set-ups. Yesterday I was able to manage her up with the stride regulator but today she disregarded it and was reaching over the up contact zone. I will give her ugly approaches from now on so I can try to break this habit.
Yeap, she is not even close to hitting with 4 hits: you definitely need 5, so yes, somewhat uglier approaches would definitely help. Add straighter approaches as you add height, but work on somewhat angled ones for now to help her get both up and down contacts.
Thanks for all your feedback.