And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Silvia, this video is of me trying to teach Max the tight around a post. I had to add some barriers to keep him from turning so wide.
The last part of the video is of him running the full DW. Looks like he is doing six strides. Sometimes he hits the up ramp at the very end.
Hm, looks like he is always doing 5 strides, but is still too high sometimes… That means he is not in full extension, a dog of his size should definitely be in with 5 strides. Make sure he has a fast, straight approach (from a tunnel maybe?) and that you throw a ball soon enough. You can also try if running with him makes him extend more. Try different things and see what makes him run the most.
For tight turns, I would recommend Cik&cap DVD as that’s definitely an area where you could still gain LOTS of time: he is very wide even on just a pole! To tighten him up, you would need to lots of multiple wraps around the pole + reward in the direction that promotes full, at least 36o degrees wrap. See the videos I posted of my Foundation students on the website.
Hi there Silvia and Class Mates
Our Video is where we are at. 3rd Session at this new height.
I have been adding height slowly. When I 1st change the height, i allow any goods hits and as we do more sessions I don’t reward high hits.
We have been trying changing start positions at each new height after a few sessions and still using tunnel after. She has responded well when the start position is changed. 🙂
I have done a few A-Frames and she seems to be doing great, I will try video tonight.
I have also managed to set up the DW at friends grounds and she has worked the DW as well as at home. 🙂
I would like to ask with what you see on the video, are her hits too high or is She good for the 3rd session new height?
Great looking forward to your comments. Thank you.
Happy Training
Well, the good thing is that she is definitely thinking about that contact and adjusting her stride. The bad thing is that she is that pretty much every try was overreachy (with the only exception of 2:13 try) and that she is thinking about front feet only and actually does unnecessary adjustments to hit with front feet when she could easily hit with hind feet… She always had those tendencies, but it was better on your last video and now we’re back to the overrreach… Do you have videos of your training between this and last video you posted? Did you miss some hind feet hits that you could jackpot? Or why did she stop offering it? Any idea when and why this happened? See videos of Anne&Tai, Fanny&Epic, Cecilia&Ninja and I think few more that all had this problem and see if any of that will help you get rid of an overreach and get some hind feet hits. Again, my problem with how she is hitting is not how high she is hitting, but that she is only using front feet and overreaches with hind feet. When you say she gets deeper after a while on a new height: deeper with front feet or you get some hind feet too?
Hi there Silvia
Ok so I don’t feel very good today and I feel quite foolish that I did not see what you have pointed out!!! 🙁 🙁 🙁
I have actually only just got up to date with editing 2 nights ago, even though I do watch it on the video machine after each session, I don’t think you see it as clearly on there, especially the over -reaching. Even in real time when we train it is not so easy, I guess that is why we now have a problem.
So it teaches me to keep up to date! Still behind on reading the web page so that is my next mission. Not because I don’t want too, just a time issue!
Maybe I should not sign up for advanced tricks yet, really don’t know what to do, as I don’t ever seem to have enough hours in the day. I have to say, I have 2 young kids and a husband, and so even getting to train sometimes is quite a challenge!
Ok so I have watched my edited videos and it seems that maybe I got a bit too excited from when I last posted (20 Oct) and you said Spy was doing so well. You said we could add challenges like starting point and the extra height, should be easy too, well clearly I have not quite got what we should be doing. 🙁 Ok so here is what I think, 1st I think perhaps we added height too quickly and I maybe got too excited about the starting position, I Perhaps used too many different new positions per session! With that, I rewarded front and back feet as this is what I understood was correct but it seems as soon as it is front feet hits she actually over-reaches with back feet. Ok so was I wrong to reward front and back or is this perhaps just for her a problem as she may actually never forget her crash and the start of her funny back feet? Or perhaps is it because I did not jackpot back feet and gave her same reward for front and back! Should I have, as I still was getting some back feet up too beginning Nov. ? Bad me!!!
My thoughts are to go back down to 5 sand dog food bags and get good starting point again and reward back feet hits only. Or do I carry on with the same height and just reward back feet? Then what? Thanks kindly.
Alicia!! You are so funny!! I love that you count the height change by sand bags!! 😀
I understand about not having the time. I seem to MAKE the time and manage to ALMOST keep up with the website, but I don’t have kids, just one VERY understanding husband and a bunch of horses and dogs, I don’t work full time 100% and my other “job” is maintaining the house………. which hasn’t happened since starting this course, LOL!!! Oops!!
I don’t know how anyone with a family could keep up!!! Don’t feel foolish, I think this is the most challenging training challenge and you’ll get it going soon enough!! Hey -- if it’s any consolation your video is SO much better!!! 😀
Amy and Little Spur
Don’t worry, I’m sure we can get her previous performance back, just check your videos for when you got your last hind feet hits and then try that set up and approaches again. She sure was doing great on a last video you posted, so it was good to raise the height and add different approaches -- height and different approaches as such don’t give you the overreach. But maybe she converted back to it after being unsuccessful with normal running? Anyway, the way to know she is overreaching is when you see one high front leg and no hind leg: normally, if front leg is high, there should be hind foot in too or she is overreaching. You can put colourful vet wraps on her hind legs and jackpot when you see them in the contact and don’t reward just one high front foot. But definitely reward two front feet in or one right in the middle. Try to find a starting point that gives you good hits and then just keep it for a while.
Silvia, Alicia: When Tai was overreaching -- similar to Spy, the height was 32″. I spent quite a few sessions at this height, trying to get rear foot hits. I got really good at seeing what was happening and rewarding correctly but was still getting the overreaching. We were both pretty frustrated since we were in a position of a lot of overreaching and no reinforcement when he did it! Then, I looked at a bunch of classmate videos doing full height and had this feeling it would be pretty hard to do an overreach if the angle of the ramp was greater. So, I raised the height from 32″ to 40″. The overreaching was reduced to near zero almost immediately! Hope that helps.
Anne & Tai
Interesting, let’s hope it works for Spy too! It’s certainly true overreaching is physically hard on them, especially on more height -- but unfortunately, some dogs are still doing it, even on full height…
Hi there Silvia and Class Mates. Thank so much for writing Amy and Anne.
1stly oh my goodness why did I not see the 1 front foot over reaching hits!!! I think because I was behind with editing I did not see the picture so well. Now we are up to date so this hopefully won’t happen again!!!
Ok so 1stly I went back and watched all our edited videos and this started to happen straight after our last post Silvia, more over reaches than there should have been, and I rewarded, bad me, but we still did get back feet but way less uup to date 14 Nov.
Ok, so I got vet wrap as you suggested Silvia and used that this morning and again this evening, not sure if I could see any better but will try the green tomorrow as we used the yellow and it seemed to get dirty quite quickly. You can see it on her in the slow mo. The colours available where I tried where not so bright so maybe I will have to try finding some other colours some where else.
In the 1st video for today, we tried the height we where on and then raised it to full height as Anne suggested, felt we did not have anything to lose trying it as it would actually be the next height I would go too, full height. This was this morning. And then the next video is this evening. I am positive as I don’t think Spy has lost back legs altogether even though t I have rewarded badly, however they are not well split. Very short sessions due to the weather but I feel there is hope. Looking forward to your reply. Do we go back down or try a little longer at full height? Happy training to all.
Yeap, that’s better, much better variety of hits! Make sure to make a big deal out of the good hits and try to not reward overreach… Maybe put a tape on the first yellow slat and only reward feet over that mark: on most overreaches, she is touching at that first slat or higher.
Hi there Silvia, Great thank you. I will for sure try my best now not to reward over-reach ! I will put some tape on the DW and use the vet tape on her. I will hopefully see it better and with that reward better! Should we stay at full height or go back down to the last height we where at? Thank you.
Ok so we are officially in RC hell, as Anne put it!!!
I went out for our morning session positive this morning and put tape on the DW and vet tape on Spy. i really thought i would see these over reaches better but hay no way, not much good at it!!! I think what it seems is i must set up low again, back down too about 4 or 5 sand bags and see if i can train myself to see it better. Very very sad!!! And if i with hold too much reward she does not like it cause she knows something is wrong, oh goodness! Anne do you have your videos up on you tube so i can look at how you where doing and how you managed to get Tai out of the over- reaching? Thanks kindly.
But… You got some hind feet too or not? What I woud suggest is not looking at the dog at all, just stare at the contact and reward if you see paws under your mark. When you watch the dog, over-reaches look very good as they look very un-leapy. So try to not watch her at all, just look at the contact and see if any feet are coming in 🙂 If you want, you can try lower height too and see if she is less overreachy there -- work on whatever height gives you most hind feet hits.
Hi Silvia:
I have a question about how much of a turn at end of DW can be executed without collection vs collection. See my diagram. Thanks!
Anne & Tai
There is no doubt that the first one doesn’t need collection in any case and that the third one needs it. The middle scenario depends some on the dog’s stride length, on where is the next obstacle (does a somewhat bigger turn puts the dog on the right or wrong line for the obstacle after that jump?) and what is straight ahead and how close. Meaning that will La, I wouldn’t cue collection, with Bi I would cue collection in almost every scenario (other than if jumping that jump to the right is preferred for the obstacle after and that there is nothing ahead) and with Bu, I would mostly not cue collection -- only if there would be a tunnel sitting right there straight ahead. So… No black and white answer, but I hope it helps some.
yes…that helps. Thx!
Below are the videos from our training session yesterday evening. I made some changes to the set up. First the DW height was increased. I was sending both dogs to either a tunnel or jump after the dog walk. Sometimes the toy was thrown in advance and the other times, I did not throw the toy until after they had completed the DW to the next obstacle. I also ran ahead of Liberty as you suggested in some of her tries. From the videos, it would appear that this did in fact cause her to lengthen her last two strides for some very nice hits. I am very excited that we have taken this step as both dogs in training were not sending to obstacles after the dog walk very well.
Also, Eli had another phenomenal weekend at our agility trial! He ran fast and happy all four runs with a 1st and 4th place on Sunday. He had very nice RC’s both days 🙂
Thanks,
Melanie, Eli & Liberty
Wow, very cool that Eli is doing so well now!!! As for RC training, I would mostly be doing whatever gives you those really nice, deep hits, so that you have as many things to jackpot as possible. It’s really good they’re mostly always in that way or another, but deeper is definitely safer, so do work in that direction some. But yes, switching to a toy thrown after is definitely big and not easy at all with some dogs!
Hi all!
Here are our trick videos. That pivoting part was taken already over 2 months ago, so it’s gotten a lot better from this. Just last night in a dog park one guy told me that Vissa looks like she’s got a wire through her as she changed from left to right so nicely 😀 Definately my favorite trick! 🙂
And here’s our cik&cap
I just love that puppy, she’s so much fun to play with <3
She sure looks fun! Great job with the tricks!!!
Hi Silvia,
Here is our latest video. We seem to be making progress with our Aframe but we’re still having a bit of trouble getting deeper hits on the dogwalk with straight exits.
Tara
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee375/swiftdogsports/?action=view¤t=Nov16contact.mp4
Great, the A-frames look really great now! -- That’s usually how it goes 🙂 DW is not perfect no, not sure why she doesn’t take somewhat longer last stride: she is definitely shortening it… Did you try everything already: running from a tunnel to a tunnel, throwing a toy in advance etc.? If nothing helps, I would just let it be for now and see if she extends more with more confidence, just as she started to on A-frame… Another thing you could try is some flat board work again, just to see if you get better separation and reach forward there so that you could jackpot it there and then try to get it on a DW too.
Yes, I’ve tried everything you could think of! I think I’ll just stay with two tunnels for awhile and see if that helps some.
I’ve been running the carpet and the single plank for a full week and wanted to see what would happen when I added a plank on in front. Height is 17″ same as the single plank. Some wonky, some OK, some nice if he had stayed on the plank but my throwing skills still plague me! Should I stay here now for a while or should I go back to single plank?
Huh, he is again not running normally… The only tries he runs normally are the last one and the two where he gets off the plank and runs next to it on the grass… That’s running. The rest is not what exactly what we want… It’s either a leap or a not grounded leg. I think I would go back to a single plank (if he was running that normally?) and maybe focus on switching from a thrown toy to a toy thrown after the tunnel/jump, so that you will have one less thing to worry about and to address later on.
Cant see the video because of the music…
I’m afraid I may need to fly to Slovenia with Cooper to get this right!!! Are you coming to the USA anytime soon?? We have a ton of people in the Northeast part of the country doing your online course so I’m sure we could have a fabulous seminar 🙂 Pamela
That’s so interesting. It’s like when he has nice rear foot separation he just doesn’t put down the rear left (Cooper, dude, it would be much easier to just run wouldn’t it?). Perhaps he’s hoping to baffle the judges so much that they won’t call it. They’ll be stupified into keeping their hands down ;).
I know, it’s really strange! And he only does it when we really need that leg down, never earlier on the DW or after on the ground!
Yeah, he is sure making this really complicated! Not sure why he can’t just run the same way as on the floor, huh… And no, no US plans for now, long-distances classes are keeping me too busy to travel 🙂
Seriously, I’m starting to think he just likes torturing me 🙂
Since I’m also throwing challenged: Pam, one thing I noticed is that you are using the chuck it to throw ‘side-arm’… just my opinion, but I would guess that a correct aim might be harder that way, vs. throwing overhand with it? When I used the chuck it, that’s what I did, and was fairly accurate with practice… I could also throw a wubba with relative accuracy, but it’s disadvantage is that it doesn’t bounce….
Spur’s wraps. I am just NOT technology savvy and did three going to the left, but I must have hit the camera and they came out all blurry. He is pretty much the same going the other direction. You might not be able to tell, but this is actually a mini-wing, so I don’t think he is going as wide as it looks in the video as the wing is heading away from the camera. :p
Looks good! And what a cute mini-wing 🙂
Hi Silvia!
Here are two videos.
Both at our new 1/2 height DW for trials to see if Arrow could reduce those sometimes giant leaps off the end.
Set up with 2 tunnels. Poles I am fading over the time of the two videos.
You can see in the middle of the first video that after I move the poles he has an adjustment period and the recovers after a few runs.
Now he is doing well without the poles, except to help him with more angled approaches.
In the second video I have moved the tunnels a bit and I think he is doing less leaping onto the DW.
I wanted to post these to get your opinion on how we are doing.
I am concerned about the leaping onto the DW and also the big air he has onto the last board.
Great, that sure looks great now! I think I even see him shortening the last stride in order to hit several tries, like 1:19, 1:36 and 1:56 of the 2nd video: in the last video you posted, he would just leap up and high in those situations 🙂 His successful rate definitely looks much better now + most of the hits are really beautiful, so I think you can soon raise it some more. Leaping onto the DW is new and not sure where that comes from… Changing his approach was a good idea and if you see it again, change it again. If necessary, we’ll even do ugly, 180 degrees approaches only for now if it persists.
Yes! I think he is many times trying to hit low/yellow and is figuring out what gets him that reward. I am glad you see that, too,so it is not just wishful thinking!
I tried a few really wide, side approaches at about 80 degrees and he really bailed off the first or middle ramps!!! He was really surprised!
I was not doing my job to tell him to adjust….
I tried to soften the approach more but was still a struggle and really slowed him down but had the best contact hits!
So that is why I started to move the entry obstacle more gently.
I tried the AF 2x too but since it has been only a decoration on my yard he needed convincing to step on it and go up and over. Then he tried to leap it and surprised him and next few tries he was trying to figure it out.
I think he will do fine with a little more experience.
Great, keep up the good work! I wouldn’t worry about the A-frame, he just needs to get used to it.
You are right! Still a work in progress and I had to drop it down a bit but doing much better on the A-Frame. Starting him slower and when he started looking at me I started tossing ball to encourage forward motion; I did not want to at first because he was scary dangerous with speed in the first 2 sessions.
Getting there! You can do some tossing if you lack forward focus, but mostly, I would only reward after the next obstacle, to hopefully get nice two hits on a down ramp and not too much flying.
Thank You! I will try that now. He was really going fast before and it seems sometimes that he has more power than weight when he flies. Funny Dog!
Happy Thanksgiving to our American classmates!!
And Hello to everybody!
Now my 32inch tall DW. Arrow is doing over 80% good hits and many deeper when he is doing straight approaches and exits. But misses the Up Ramp by leaping on. Doing some nice adjustments and still stretching over that second apex.
So I tried slight angle approaches and that helped a little but still had some leaping on.
So now I am trying more angles; a tunnel to the side of the DW parallel or one at about 90 degrees; With both he has some arcing out due to speed of exit from tunnel so is difficult to have same angle each time.
Entries much deeper now! But; I am concerned because he is doing an extra “need to adjust” hit on first ramp
and he is having some different hits on down contact, and, he is slower. So most DWs are now 6 hits but unequal striding.
I was not sure if he is depending on cueing from the pole at the end, I am playing with this as you can see at the end.
And when I try the occasional straight-on approaches he tends to have some high hits on the on ramp.
These are examples on the video but i had to edit a lot of runs out of these sessions because I was in the way. He does have some really high hits and occasional misses too but overall is still over 80% on the exit contact
And the one where he leaps is because I yelled Yes! Good boy! After a really nice entry contact…..got carried away.
Suggestions?
Arrow just keeps impressing me! 🙂 He is definitely trying hard and mostly has really nice hits, I also really like the variety of his hits (sometimes with front, sometimes with hind feet). His striding looks perfectly good to me and exactly as it should be when we raise the height (and give him straighter entries again). I also didn’t see any leaping to an up ramp, did you say you included those or not? Anyway, for now, I would just stick with angled approaches and add straighter ones once you raise it some more. Hopefully he will forget about leaping onto DW by then and if not, you’ll work on it separately on just a plank -- but I would leave it for now. I would probably first try to change that tunnel after the DW for a jump to see if he is fine with that, maybe even move or angle it SLIGHTLY and then in the next step, raise the some DW again.
Thank You! I am very happy to get that compliment 🙂 I was not sure we were doing the right things.
Yes, he makes that first hit higher or occasionally leaps over the entry contact when the tunnel/jump angles are less than 45 degrees so I moved that to over 90 degrees and this is working much better; that is what you see in this video.
I have been mostly using tunnels for entry/exit set up because I am short on flat yard space. Start jump with Cik/Cap fits well but there is little space to toss a ball after the jump at the end unless I turn him after the jump. I will try to find a way to angle this for more space, but if I can’t, should I try turning him after that end jump?
Tunnels are good yes, but I would occasionally like to try the jump too. Try to angle it some and then toss a ball in that direction too. I mostly toss somewhat to the left/right anyway (even when I have unlimited room) as they can keep running that way -- if I throw it straight, they’re faster as the ball and have to stop and wait for it -- and tha way, they have longer path as my ball and can keep running. But it’s not real turn, more like a curve.