And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Hi Silvia,
Spec worked right lead entries with more ugly approaches. We also raised the DW to 30″. The ugly entries seem to be working. He came off the up ramp a couple of times, and once off the top ramp at the new height. Thankfully it wasn’t an issue since previously I had done some dismount work on a low elevated plank. How do I go about getting good hits with a straight on approach? Should I just continue to slowly move the angle of the jump so it will eventually end up straight on? Or should I wait until the DW is at full height to work the straight on approaches?
Knowing Spec’s history how many high reinforcement sessions do you think I should have before raising the DW again? I’m perfectly willing to go slow if that’s what Spec needs.
I noticed on the video I need to add support to the up/down ramp. Will do so tomorrow. Thanks for your input.
That’s beautiful! I think raising the DW will only make his contacts better, not worse, so you can raise it some every 3 good sessions or so. With every new height, you can add somewhat straighter entries too, but I would wait with completely straight tunnel approaches and such until you’re almost at full height and you’re already doing not completely straight exits already.- Speaking of which: start to move the exit jump SLIGHTLY around or angle it some. But of course only change one variable at the time: either add angled exits, more height or straighter entries (I would maybe go in that order first).
Will do. The beautiful part is due to your wonderful teaching and suggestions. Thank you.
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Spec is still at 30″. We haven’t had what I consider 3 good sessions. The problem is he is throwing one leg down and hitting at the end of the contact area, or just above the last slat. I can’t always see these. My question is: Should I be rewarding the one foot hits that are close to the end? I know this is justifying my poor ability to always catch those one foot hits, but if I’m having a hard time seeing them, won’t a judge?
Yes, I don’t like those very low front foot touches exactly from that reason: judges might miss those… I do reward that dropped front foot when it’s not too low, but those at the very end are definitely not perfect… However, if he again needs to shorten a stride and can only throw that one front leg of the fourth stride in… -- maybe raising it again would actually help? Or staying with ugly approaches maybe? -- What kind of approaches give you this type of striding? What do you get if you send him to a DW from a tunnel under the DW for example?
Hi Silvia,
I get more of the low one foot hits with a jump at a 90 degree angle to the DW. He seemed to be doing better when the jump was greater than 90 degrees. (uglier entry) I can also move the jump so it is more in line with the DW but still 90 degrees. Right now it’s about 8 ft off line of up ramp but 15 to 20 ft away. Haven’t tried the tunnel but coming at the DW with the x-pens on both sides of the up ramp makes him slow down. Haven’t tried raising the DW either since I didn’t think he had a high enough reward rate at 30 inches but can give it a try. Looks like I’ll be playing around this weekend to see if one of those suggestions can help. I wish I knew a way to train my eye so I could catch the one foot hits better. Unless they are in the middle of the contact area I have a hard time seeing them, especially when they are with his front outside leg. I usually have the ‘did he or didn’t he’ question in my mind. Needless to say the decision can’t take that long to give him timely feedback. Figure it’s better to miss a couple rewardable hits than it is to click for a true no hit. It will just take me longer to train it since it will take Spec longer to figure out what I want. I really think he’s trying to do what he thinks he should. Do you agree? Thanks for the help:)
Yeap, I definitely agree that he is trying really hard, but well, it’s not easy to fit in 4 strides for such a long-strided dog, that’s why I think more height and uglier approaches will help.
Hi Silvia,
I raised the DW to 36″ today. Left the approach jumps close to 90 degrees. Didn’t want to change more than one thing at a time. He seemed to do ok. His hits were pretty much all over the place but usually in the contact zone. Should I raise it some more or stick with this height for awhile? Thanks.
Since he is definitely running, not leaping, I think I would go up to full height quite quickly at this point and then sort out his striding on full height, so that you don’t need to do it again and again on every height.
Hi Silvia and Classmates,
Here’s Spec on 36″ for the first time. His hits are all over the place. Still doing hard/ugly entries.
Wasn’t able to train for 3 days. Next session started at 36″ for a couple DW’s then went to 41″. Again hits were all over the place.
Should I stay at this height or raise the DW again?
All sessions have been to a static toy after a low jump 20′ from the DW.
I think I would do two more sessions on this height to get him used to it some and then go to the next height. Or, you can send me another video first to see his striding. Try the same camera angle as in the first video and slow me down the whole DW to see exactly how he is placing his strides. Big variety of hits is a good thing -- as long as he manges to mostly be in of course.
Day 2 running the carpet. A couple of the weird runs are because I had technical difficulties throwing the ball.
Should I be posting this here because it’s where the class is or put it back under lesson 1 because that’s where we’ve moved back to?
Looks good! Hind feet grounded and separated, nice reach forward. Some more sessions to do before going to plank again. You can post here or there, doesn’t really matter.
We have also been working on our fun tricks!
Nice! He is too cute trying to locate that object behind him 🙂 For pivoting, try with less luring now, maybe working on circling the object all on his own without you in a picture for a little longer to get him to circle all the way to you with less help then.
Hi Silvia, Here is my training with Saga today. The first set-up she 3 strided 3x so I raised it again to 37″. Her first time over she missed again so I back chained and added a stride regulator for the up contact--I noticed she hit just above the contact zone on her other attemps. Once she hit in the yellow on the up she was back to her good striding again.
To avoid 3 strides, try some difficult approaches (use a pole to make sure she still enters straight) -- that will make her hit the up contact too. See my discussions with Maureen and Fanny too, they had the same problem.
Thanks, I’ll look for their comments.
Hi Silvia,
Here is our A-frame from today. She still continues to hit very high (in with left foot only). Today she offered a new hit style (she only touches down with her rear feet once). However, her front feet touch down twice on the down ramp of the aframe. These hits are much deeper but I want to know if I should reward those hits as the style may be less then desired ?
Aframe is full height.
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee375/swiftdogsports/?action=view¤t=Nov11.mp4
I would reward both. I sometimes see my dogs do that front feet to front feet too on A-frame and it’s o.k., it means she is trying to get in, so you definitely want to reward it.
Silvia,
This session is far from short and fun… but I couldn’t let it go… and then we did have success eventually, BUT
We have a new issue I think…
I was able to rent the arena for a half hour this morning—they are packing it up for the winter : ( —and I am sure I had her do too many reps on the DW (25--with a break 2/3 way through) but except for the last few runs she was leaping and high and her strides were all over the place with some breaking into trotting and often just looking weird… so now after looking at it over and over in the editing I think I know what is going on…
do you remember I mentioned that she was licking and licking her right hind foot and I couldn’t find anything wrong with it except right above one pad it looked a little red… I think she must have caught her toe ON or IN the small gap at the apex on our homemade DW (on one of them the plank is a little higher than the center board) because to me it looks like what she is doing is everything she can to miss those two apexes in this video… those are the places she changes her striding and she just seems worried, which I didn’t see til I saw the video—its not really til after we take a break (at 2:30) that she gives me more confident striding all the way across and as a result, better hits…
ok--so what to do? how to get her past this… worry
let me know if this is what you see too?
later in the day we had a short session at home and that went much better but I haven’t edited that video yet.
thanks, Dinah
And also, I am wondering what to do, what is the best thing to do, the next time we are having so much failure… I am guessing -- stop, try again later? and not what I did, push and push until there is success…
Silvia—the next three sessions were full of leaping as if she remembers what she used to do on the full height DW PRE-running training, as if she’s forgotten EVERYTHING. so then we played on the teeter and with the weave poles and now we are back in the city.
SOOOOO--We are taking a break now. we will work on hind end this week and some tricks—thats it. AAAAAAAAAHK!
Dinah
Only saw this now, but the break sounds like the best idea anyway. Then try your DW again and again with the ball -- she might be back to normal. If so, try the other DW again, while keeping the other variables the same.
Well, first of all, I wouldn’t be changing more as one variable at the time. It’s hard to know now if she was leapy because of another way to reward and different handler position or because of another DW. Definitely try this DW with your usual ball too. But I would first give her a little break so that her toe heals properly and she forgets about it if she really hurt herself on a DW. And yes, when things go wrong, the best is to stop, she sure doesn’t look quite right on that first session. Hurting toe could definitely explain it.
Here is our most recent session -- dew claw mostly healed I think! I don’t think it was too bad, thoughts?
2nd session Morning of 11/12
3rd session (2nd session that day) same set up evening 11/12
Thoughts on progression from here?
Thanks!
Whoops, I’ve been busy this weekend! 4th session!
Great! Let’s try raising it again!
Ok, cool. Any suggestions on the wrap pole location for his approach? I think I will raise the table by putting each leg on a cement block… that’s about 6 inches or so.. maybe a 8 at the most, I’m guessing. I’ll change the setup tonight, and see what we get!
6 or 8 inches should be o.k. Leave the wrap pole where it is first and then slowly move it further if you are still getting nice running.
Here is our first session with higher table.. I think he did better with the wrap pole a little further away, with the new angle of the upramp…
Looks great! But yes, he needs some more room now, so leave the pole there and then slowly move it even further. His hits are starting to look more intentional yes. If he keeps running like this for 3 more sessions, you can raise it again, but would be good to already use somewhat more narrow object instead of a table, to start working on introducing that apex.
Will do! Thanks!
2nd session:
Yeap, looks like he is adjusting… Not sure why he was higher this time though -- maybe move the wrap pole a little further again?
Here is 3rd session, same set up as above: 11/18…
Yeap, he definitely seems to be really trying hard! Still no real leaps, so I guess you can go higher and to a more narrow object.
Awesome! I feel he is trying hard too! I will do one more session on this set-up, as I just finished applying carpet to the side of a bookcase I bought, so it won’t be slippery… it is 1 foot wide… I will try to use another piece I bought, to make 1 foot 8 inches wide, to get closer to about 2 feet…. which seems a bit more gradual of a narrowing of the ‘table’… the table is 3 feet wide…. Waiting for the glue to dry now 🙂
More to come!!
Awesome! I feel he is trying hard too! I will do one more session on this set-up, as I just finished applying carpet to the side of a bookcase I bought, so it won’t be slippery… it is 1 foot wide… I will try to use another piece I bought, to make 1 foot 8 inches wide, to get closer to about 2 feet…. which seems a bit more gradual of a narrowing of the ‘table’… the table is 3 feet wide…. Waiting for the glue to dry now 🙂
More to come!!
11/19 same set up:
New set up coming this afternoon!
EE gads: here is our first attempt at this new set up… not so great… his running is quite erratic… The height of this set up is about 4 feet, about 1 foot higher than the last setup…
My concern is not so much where he hits but how he runs now… Not much hind feet separation anymore… Now, you could try one more session on this height to see if you get it back by trying different starting spots. Or, you can try this height with a table width in the middle. Or, you can try the previous height, with this width in the middle. -- Whatever is easier to build. I hope it gives us the running back!
What do you think: give him a straight approach to see if 3 hits will work, or go down on the height of the set-up?
Here is our 2nd session on this new higher and narrower set up: 11/21.
I was MUCH happier with this session…. maybe I can stick with it for a few sessions, as long as I see him attempting to make adjustments and run vs. leap?
Definitely better yes… And yes, as long as the trend is good and you’re getting less leaps, you can keep this set up.
Hi Silvia,
I started with different approaches to the DW .. and I introduced the A-frame!
I have a problem when there are no obstacles after the DW .. he leaping, but after several repeats, it’s ok.
I can’t solve: the first zone is always flying .. perhaps it’s too much excitement and he not connect immediately the brain…
What could be the solution???
After there is a jump rotated left or right
One of my dogs has the joy of leaping when he is wound up. I have found that I need to actually give him a short play session before we work his brain. Energy isn’t his problem so it doesn’t effect his speed but it does let him think a bit better 🙂 I think it also helps us connect before working.
Thanks, I’ll try with this system 😉
Looks good! To avoid misses on a first try, you can definitely try playing some first so that he burns off some energy + try to find his best set up (the way he starts and what he runs to after) and try starting him that way first. When running into nothing, you can go back to a thrown or a static toy first to help him succeed -- and then try it without it after 4 or 5 good tries with the help from toy. How are you rewarding now anyway? A-frame looks great too, you can raise both A-frame and DW some I think.
I reward always with toy launch after an obstacle or a tube, if there’s nothing after, the first time I leave the toy far enough and then launch it forward. He seems to lose concentration not seeing anything after.. A similar problem happens when I’m behind him, seems to slow down..
How I could work these problems? With the static toy?
Yes, a mix of using a static toy, a toy thrown in advance and a toy thrown after he is in (varying between the three) should help with this problem.
Hi Silvia!
I completed the height of DW. What do you think? He not much separates the back legs, maybe I have a little lower? I would have another question, when I can teach the dog the seesaw?
Oh, you can teach a see-saw anytime you want as it has nothing to do with RC. How many sessions on full height have you done? If this is the first one, I would definitely do some more and see the trend. If he is always in, I wouldn’t worry. If not, you can always go back down, but I would certainly do at least 5 sessions first to see the trend.
Hi Silvia,
I finally feel I’m making headway with Lira. Something clicked and she’s not leaping as much. This session I was using a tunnel at the end with different approaches to the DW. We started off straight, then moved a little bit right and then left. Also had a couple of nice sessions with the jump too but had a slightly more leaping. Clicking at the end with mixing it up with a toy and food for rewards…Once I pull out the treats she has no interested in the toy.
How do you feel about using hoops at the ends of the DW? I’ve been using them with my older aussie Summit and it’s helping him keep his head down and not leaping. I’ve seen the results in recent trials and his DW is looking great.
Looks great! Definitely keep working with the tunnel if you get better hits that way. You can then try a jump -- tunnel after DW next and then slowly take the tunnel away -- but bring it back whenever you get too many leaps. Not sure why would you want to use hoops now that things are going well, but I definitely do NOT advise you do it… Personally, I don’t know even one dog with reliable contacts trained that way… They were very popular in Europe 15 years ago and I actually used them for Lo… And learned my lesson. I think you can loose all the work you did so far. I would be interested to hear if your other dog’s contacts stay consistent that way.
Should I raise the DW?
Yes, I think you can try raising it some.
Hi Silvia: Anne and Tai here! We last posted on 9-15-2011 after transitioning to a full ht dogwalk and finally getting rid of that troubling over-reaching. For the next couple of weeks, we kept working but things weren’t going all that well. He was still leaping more than it seemed he should at this point and he started missing his up contact for the first time. I was starting to stress a bit and decided it would be best for both of us to take a break for a while. During that break, I worked on his 2o2o behavior.
Now, I’m relaxed again and can have fun with the RDW. The first video is his second session since our break. I love his striding in this session…he has great extension across the horizontal plank. In the session after this one, I was sending him from the DW to a tunnel and he was missing a lot. So, in yesterday’s session I changed the setup back to DW -- jump -- with the tunnel after the jump (normal spacing….like it might be in a course). After a few tries he did better with this setup. I rewarded him after the jump, not after the tunnel. I just wanted the visual there as a challenge like it might be in a course.
I’ve posted the second short session from yesterday with the setup I just described. Notice we are back to 5 strides. So, it seems to me that when I challenge him and he starts thinking about getting his hits, he extends less across the horizontal plank. Your thoughts?
Also, I haven’t been keeping up the daily posts during my break and I’ve seen reference to advice on up contact but despite over an hour looking last night, couldn’t find the reference. It looks like you are advising to approach from an angle and put a pole at the entrance to encourage correct entry? Is anyone having success with a stride regulator?
Thanks!
Anne & Tai
Welcome back! 🙂 Tai still looks great to me, he certainly knows his job and is trying really hard. Misses do happen here and there in the first year of using RC, that’s for sure -- they do need experience too. How much was he missing? Slowing down in order to hit after some misses is actually a good sign too as it means they’re really trying to do it right. However, in order to avoid too much slowing down, I try to present challenges slowly enough that they’re mostly successful and their confidence level stays high. If we meet a problematic set up that gives me several misses in a row, I’ll do a couple of repetitions on an easy set up to help them succeed and then try a problematic one again, but trying to adjust it to make it easier for them -- just as you did with that jump before the tunnel, that was as a good thing to do. You could also turn the entries away some at first for example. Also, I’m guessing he was missing when going to the tunnel because he extended even more and was trying to do 3 strides? If so, you can try ugly, slower approaches to DW when going directly to a tunnel after as less speed going up will make 3 strides less tempting. I can imagine he would sometimes try for 3 though as in the first video, he often needs to shorten a fourth one significantly in order to still fit it in. His stride certainly seems even longer as it was, that’s why I guess you got some up contacts misses too…
The thing with a pole to wrap at the beginning of a DW and sending them on it from hard, 180 degrees approaches was just a suggestion how to avoid up contacts misses as that way, they will certainly be in. I think it might actually make them hit it more reliably also from straight approaches as I at one point did tons of beginnings like this with Bi (when teaching turns: as starting her that way allowed me to run some less 🙂 ) who used to miss quite some up contacts because of her long stride -- and interestingly, she very rarely still misses it after that work. It also helped her choose safe approaches on her own. I also used stride regulator some before that and it helped some too, so you can certainly try that too. Another way you could go is actually shaping him to hit it a similar way we did it with down contact, by laying a board on the floor -- ideally uphill -- and clicking& rewarding the up contacts. But you can try ugly approaches and stride regulator first, could be that will be enough to fix the problem as it doesn’t seem that big.
Thanks Silvia…I’ll try what you suggested for his up contacts. I think they might not look that bad because I’m not getting that far ahead.
You asked how much he was missing before we took our break and honestly, looking back at my notes…not THAT much. But there were a few sessions where he couldn’t seem to get it right and I didn’t know how to make it easier. Maybe he was just trying to figure out how to do it in 4 strides. Anyway, I think the break was good for us 🙂
In fact, I celebrated our return with a little movie…Check this out…:-)
Sure, breaks are always good! 🙂 And I actually often recommend people to do 2on2off when they get frustrated with RC -- and they always come back with even more eagerness to do RC again! 🙂 So we’re sure glad that you’re back, Tai is always fun to watch! And what a cool video, can I post it on the website?
Hi: Yes…sure you can post on your website. I just made sure it was “public”….:-)
Great, thank you!
I LOVE that, Anne!!! I am very envious, I can barely make the simplist of movies, LOL!!!
Well done, that was really fun to watch and welcome back, for sure!!! Great fun watching you and Tai. I hope we some day meet!!!
Cheers! Amy and Little Spur
Thanks Amy! I’m sure we’ll cross paths at some point. Let’s make sure Anne Andrle introduces us!
Anne
Anne, what program are you using to edit? I really need to get a new program.
Cyberlink Powerdirector 9. It’s great but I did get it after upgrading my computer last year…so make sure you have the power to support it! I’m still learning about new features -- as I feel like it — and no doubt have barely tapped the possibilities!