And here comes lesson 4 for those who are still keeping up, meaning that you're already running full low DW with a jump or a tunnel after it. For those who are not there yet - don't even try it, keep sending videos of whereever you are and watch videos of others to get a good picture of what this lesson is about and you can work on it later on.
1. Start moving the jump after which the dog is getting his toy A LITTLE in different directions: left and right, rotating it somewhat etc. If it makes the dog fail, set it back to help the dog succeed and then move it again by really VERY little tiny bit. It's better to move it a little every two tries as to move it a lot every two sessions! Keep rewarding by throwing a toy after the contact is done, over the jump. Try to sometimes use a tunnel instead of a jump too. Go through all the possible positions of the jump that still allow the dog to get the jump without collection on a dog-walk. When the dog is fine with that, try adding more jumps around so that there are more possible options. Try running into nothing (no obstacles ahead) too. You want to address all possible course situations other than real turns - we'll get there in the next session.
2. Time to start with an A-frame too! - For all who are already doing the whole DW on at least half height.
Put the A-frame somewhat lower (1,5m maybe) and try running the dog over. I recommend less speedy approach first (starting close to the base of an A-frame) as dogs who were trained to RUN over planks tend to run up so fast they then fly over the top so much that it's not unusual they only land on the floor... If you see your dog doesn't have such tendencies, add more&more speed to the approach AND make it steeper and steeper, I usually go to full height in one session.
Don't worry if not all contacts are perfect at first, they will probably need to experiment some at first. They often first go for one stride but then change to two as it's more comfortable striding for them - or sometimes medium dogs start with two that are too short to get in but then start to extend more and are nicely in with two. Many long-strided dogs will go for one, Bi is always doing one and used to sometimes be somewhat high, but is now always nicely in, even on not so speedy approaches. Bu will normally do two, but sometimes also does one and interestingly, is always in even when she goes for one. Le does two and is sometimes somewhat high as she once flew over the top so much that she crashed to the floor really badly and is now somewhat too careful at the top - but getting in nicer with time and experience.
The thing that I said for running contacts: that the good thing is that they only get better, even if you don't do anything about it... - It's especially true for A-frame. I simply put it in sequences at the second session and they just get better&better. The only problem we ever had with A-frames was with "limit" dogs who were too far with one/two strides that they could make another one, but too high to be in with that one/two strides. You do need to do some more sessions on just A-frame with those dogs and select for good ones. Experiment a little with what gives you best hits as far as handler position and timing of a thrown ball (in advance vs. after the contact) and use that for a start.
With a good hit, I mean anything clearly in. You do NOT want them to generalize DW style too good as you do NOT want them too deep, it's physically too hard on them and they might prefer to not do it if you ask them to come too deep - remember, the easier behaviour is for them, the easier it is for you to maintain it. You are again looking for hind feet separation and you don't want it any deeper as that:
3. Tricks: let's do some pivoting again, this time so that you position yourself next to the target and only click for coming all the way to your leg, touching it. Then either move away and have them follow you or have them pivot back to the other leg. Once they understand the leg is their new object to target, switch to a flat target and then fade it. We need them to know to come to both legs without the target for the next trick.
The other trick we need till next time, for being able to introduce turns, is going tightly around a pole, cik&cap. Shape the dog to wrap the pole/table leg/whatever tightly and put it on a verbal cue.
Epic has had a weeks break from running dogwalks (and most of agility). This was his session today. Sometimes he shows a little more separation and reach I think… I think I’ll try with a tunnel instead of a jump tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. Also tried a low A-frame a few times.
They’re so funny trying to figure out that striding on A-frame! Luckily, he was somewhat flying only the first time, so I think it will go away soon. You can raise the A-frame pretty quickly, he can sort out the striding then. And hey, he got all the up contacts on DW! He is definitely trying on his down contacts too, so I think it’s just a question of more experience and jackpotting for those hind feet.
Today, I let Epic run to a tunnel after the dogwalk for the first time. I actually put a tunnel at each end of the dogwalk to get more flow in the session. It feels like we had some breakthroughs today. First thing I noticed was better hind feet separation and lower hits. I also noticed that his nice up-contacts were gone.
I started training up-contacts separately on the full dogwalk, which I thought would be hard, but actually had a great effect! My little dog is so nice to me, always trying to understand and always running fast.
Somehow, I think he got an extra gear from the tunnels, so he started doing three strides again and was in the yellow most of the times, but not low (unless he missed the up-contact). Too bad he did it where the camera didn’t really show if he was in or not, but my eyes were sure that he was anyway.
Anyway, I feel very happy that he is starting to get better hind feet separation and reach and that I seem to have found a way to train his up-contacts that is easy and gives instant results!
Yeap, tunnel to tunnel set up always helps with extension problems 🙂 Don’t do too much of it if you’ll be getting too many 3 stride patterns though as yes, those will mostly be high hits. But it’s good for now as our major focus is reach and separation now, so even high hits are o.k. The way to reward up contacts look somewhat scary, could be dangerous if he is surprised by that toy, so make sure he is well prepared for it.
Silvia,
So how would you suggest to work on the up contacts? I think I remember seeing Fanny had a plank flat on the ground on a hill to start. Where do you go from there?
-grace
Yes, a plank on a hill is a great idea. I guess you can do some of what Fanny is doing here next too, but as I said, I would make sure the dog knows the toy is coming, so he is not surprised + the DW should have a good grip. I never went that way as only Bi had problems with it and it just went away on its own, she is somehow always in now.
Our session today. I got even more three stride repetitions, so I went to an angled approach. I think I’ll work on moving a jump around -- both before and after the dogwalk in our next session.
Well, reach and separation are sure nice in 3-stride tries! Maybe we see less of it in 4 strides as he needs to shorten a 4th one some… Well, he sure is ready for some new challenges!
This is the third session where I have moved the jump to the side. It took him some repetitions to get used to it, but he handles it ok now (moved the jump further out twice in the video). He is also doing full height a-frame and it looks ok. Not much hind feet separation, but I guess that’ll come when he get’s used to running the a-frame.
Cool, his hind feet separation keeps improving! I’m sure it will come on A-frame too yes, so I would just start using A-frame in sequences and give him time to get used to it. DW is getting better&better too, so you can keep moving and angling that jump and then adding some more jumps around too to get him used to different situations.
Today’s video isn’t very good since I didn’t have anyone to help me with the camera. I set up a few different jumps and had four different options. I had a jump to the right and one to the left. The middle jump was set slightly to the left so that he also could get the backside of it.
I felt that he needed some collection to get the side jumps and I helped him with some deceleration and talking while he was still on the dogwalk. I was surprised of how well he did considering that I just started to ask for turns. It did feel better than it looks in the video though. On the other hand -- he didn’t miss any contacts, just some high ones.
Should I worry about that he uses more front legs now? Should I worry about the over-reach tendency in a few of the repetitions? Should I worry about that he makes a lot of adjustments (is that because I have progressed to fast?) or is it a good thing?
Good, looks like this won’t be much of a problem. It’s normal it gave you more front feet and it’s good he is adjusting, but might be he is still thinking somewhat too much, so I would still do many sessions of just going straight and trying to get hind feet. I would do some angling of the jump too, but maybe not too much too soon so that he doesn’t convert back to his old style -- it does look somewhat like that in this video.
Here is our A-frame.
Great! The A-frame is sure perfect! 🙂
Hi,
I´m afraid session 4 came too early for us 🙁
You know, we had that very wide down-ramp very long and halved it about 2 weeks ago.
It was no problem for Blue -- so we went to a real low dogwalk and tried again: Blue ALWAYS jumped off the contact 🙁
We realized that the horizontal part of our garden-dogwalk is shorter than the one of a real dogwalk -- so we made it longer.
Since that time Blue didn´t have his 95 % Jackpots like before 🙁 I think only some 30 %. Then we tried with a tunnel after the dogwalk, because I thought maybe he thinks to much on the jump and is jumping too early -- already on the down-ramp 🙂 but with the tunnel it was not better.
So today I decided to go back some steps and now I´m throwing again.
I will post a video with some of all our tries in the last 2 weeks.
It always takes so much time to cut and post the videos, so I always have to motivate myselfe 🙂
By the way -- I forgot to answer your question regarding my new puppy:
She is from the U.S. again. From the same breeder where I got Clown -- and of course she is smooth coated one 🙂
And throwing helps? To me, it sounds like he got patterned to one type of striding… He will need to learn to adjust, so once you have higher successful rate again, don’t forget to challenge him with different approaches, so that he can’t do the same striding every time, but needs to do some adjustments to hit the end… -- so definitely more of a lesson 3 before going to lesson 4! I find editing videos very demotivating too 🙂 so you can post a video just here and there and otherwise just report what’s going on to get some directions.
Looking forward to meet your puppy, smooths are the best!
Yes, throwing helps, but I have to throw very late. It seems we are back in lesson 1 or so 🙁
I don´t know why, it seems he has never understood what he was doing 🙁
I´m very desperate at the moment. Every time I try to change something which is more challenging (for example throwing later) he jumps. I have finally cut some videos of the last 2 weeks, I hope you can “find”/see his “problem.
The first video is just to show how good he did with the short horizontal part. You can see also our few tries on a low real dogwalk.
The second video is showing our current problem with the long horizontal part:
Ah, this is nothing, he is not really jumping, he just didn’t figure out his striding just yet as those lengths are new to him. RC is not just about the understanding, it also requires experience and with every new challenge, you do need to make all other variables as easy as possible, so don’t worry, go back to throwing and help his find a good pattern for new length. Are you sure your DW is normal length? I’m asking because he is sometimes going for 3 strides on yours while on the real DW he does 4 and is still too hight even though this looks like Ernst’s DW and it’s the shortest DW I ever saw in trials around here. So he will have to get used to even longer DWs as that. How long are your planks?
Anyway, help him succeed as much as possible. That means throw a toy again + give him uglier, slower approaches on your DW if he keps going for 3 strides + on a new DW, just run him over to give him time to adjust, he seems uncomfortable on it, his strides are shorter and on the one try that he could get a nice hit he chooses to leap to get off of it. He needs to learn new DWs are o.k., so just make it as easy for him as possible and keep running him even if he keeps missing. You can also play some of the “get that contact” starting from any point on a DW, so that he learn the importance of the very end. You can also work on his confidence on new DWs like that. But well, problems and misses is how they learn what exactly we want. It went way too smoothly till now with Blue to be true 🙂
Thanks for motivation 🙂
Our garden-dogwalk IS shorter than a real dogwalk, that´s true.
We thought we will adjust him slowly to the normal lenght. The up and the down ramp are 4 meters long, but the horizontal one is only 1,5 meters long I think.
Do you think it is better to stop running him on THESE sizes and just go to a real (low) dogwalk?
We will get one real dogwalk for our garden in about 2 weeks I think. We would loose some time, but maybe it´s better than to adjust him to these wrong sizes? We do have access to a real dog walk (that one you saw on the video), but only about 2 times a week.
Definitely work on a real low DW as often as possible to get him used to it -- and don’t worry if he misses a lot at first, it’s normal… Try to help him succeed as much as possible though and make a big deal out of the good ones. You can still continue to work on your set up, it definitely doesn’t hurt. You can focus on trying different approaches there, fading the toy again and other difficult stuff. And on a real DW, just do the easiest things until things go back to normal.
Hi,
on our “garden-dogwalk” it´s getting better now.
We have the jump back and we are only throwing the ball, after a good try.
For me it seems, he understands better now (no contact, no ball, good strides -- ball) but on the video I saw, that he is not running his 200 % full speed, so I think we should throw it sometimes in advance again…!?
We also did different approaches -- if he comes with more speed, because of a straight approach he misses the contact very often -- with short approaches he does it better.
Unfortunately this week we had no chance to go the a real dogwalk 🙁 but we will try it this week.
Here is a video of our Sunday session:
Looks great again! 🙂 Slowly introduce straighter approaches too to challenge him some more and see if he can adjust and hit -- I think he is already doing some little adjustments, but not always, so definitely still something to work on. You can still throw a ball in advance sometimes, of course, despite he doesn’t look very slow to me 🙂 I hope the real DW goes well too!
Nevis and I aren’t ready for lesson 4 but could I get clarification on the trick? Do you mean the dog is pivoting back and forth between left human leg on dog right shoulder and right human leg on dog left shoulder like windshield wiper?
Exactly! 🙂
Hi Silvia,
I’m having a hard time picturing the trick. Would you have any video you could post? Thanks.
You can see it at the beginning of this video for example:
Silvia, this video is of the 4th of 5th session since I last sent you one. He had a couple of leaps and most hits were high. I think the hits will get better when we decide to raise the DW. How far away should I add a jump or tunnel from the exit of the DW in Feet?
A-Frame: how many is 1.5m?
Hi William, your video is private, we cannot see it
Sorry again :0( I now have it fixed. Plus I have another of him on the Low A-Frame for the first time. It pretty well!!
Looks good! As he doesn’t have flying tendencies, you can give him a normal, straight and fast approach. On A-frame, you don’t need to worry about really deep hits, even high hits are fine for A-frame. He has nice, two hits style and that should get him in every time.
For translations from feet to meters and back, Google knows it all 🙂 -- 1.5m is about 5 feet and the jump should be at about 6m=20 feet away. You might want to lower A-frame some more at first maybe as he is a retrain, to make it look less like a real A-frame he knows. The video I can’t see as it’s private.
Thanks, now I have more questions 🙂 Lession 4 TRICKS, I understand the last one cik&csp. But the first one I’m not sure about. Is it another part of the trick where the dog puts its front paws up on something and pivots around it in both directions? If yes, then you want me to stand close to it and have the dog pivot around until it comes in contact with my leg, then click?
Exactly. With a target first and then also without.
With height, he might get even higher as his strides will be somewhat shorter, so I would stay on this height a little bit more. He seems slower as he was before and his head is turning to the camera instead of focusing straight… What is that? Did you change anything about when and how you throw? Well, it was certainly getting better towards the end of the video, so maybe he just needs more practice.
Oh, and support the down ramp some more, it’s hard to run full speed as it’s bouncing so much.
Hi Silvia
Here is some vid from Shimmer’s last trial. Again sorry re the jumping being first, the agility starts at min 1:10. She finally did a DW the way she does it in training! Yay! The Open Agility DW was BEAUTIFUL, I was so excited 🙂 In Novice Agility we had a 90 degree turn to the R, and I handled it with a lead out. I thought she didnt do too bad, considering, she had hind feet separation and she was clearly in, if high. I must say I do love these running contacts..they are a blast even if they are the hardest thing I have ever trained!
Back to work on more turns at training this week, and to start Ink on the AF I guess (she is 12.5 months old, do you think thats too young?)
Kriszty
Wow, those DWs were sure great!!! Even the one with a turn was nice as that’s definitely not an easy one. Front crosses can often make them collect and miss, so she did realyl well.
I guess you can do some A-frames with Ink to see how she does, but I wouldn’t do too many at this age.
Thanks, I was pleased 🙂
I did some AFs with Ink last night, on full height for us (I think lower than you guys have it though). She did what I expected, 2 hits on the down side, but a bit high, as she is a cautious dog. I think she will be fine with a bit more experience, but I’ll leave it for another couple of months.
So when you say ‘front crosses can often make them collect and miss’, I take it you try NOT to FC off the DW? So you would have handled it with a 90 degree shoulder pull then a back cross?
Well, I like to FC on 180 degrees turns as I do want them to collect there. For 90 degrees, I decide based on how close or not the jump is (and what is straight ahead) and FC in tighter situations, but go with a shoulder pull in more open situations.
OK makes sense.
Here is some vid from our last session- pretty terrible,with both dogs.
Dont know what happened to Ink- just about every DW was really high. There were a couple (eg first one) that were OK but rest were awful. Was planning on trying to move the exit jump, but didnt as they were so high. Thoughts?? Dont know what she is doing.. (she did pull up with a sore RF though..) She does not appear to be slipping anymore.
And below is Shim, doing turns. Her straights are OK, but looking at this I think she really needs to put a front foot down on her turns. I think I would have to go back to the board in the garden to teach this, and only reward that. What do you think?
Thanks
That was good to not move the exit jump for Ink for now, I think we really need deeper ones first. Her problem is that she is adjusting and shortening the stride too much: if she just ran normally, that would give you a much deeper hit I think… What if you try (U-shaped) tunnel-DW-tunnel set up and just run her back and fourth, ignoring the bad ones and jackpotting the good ones. It’s a great exercise to get more extension and I think that’s what she needs. -- Think less and run more 🙂
With Shim, working on turns more in the garden, where you are getting better hits, is definitely a good idea. Try backchaining the same thing on real DW then.
Hi all
If anyone is reading this from Perth in WA I would like to hear about the agility scene there. Where are the good places and is it possible to rent time on courses/halls etc? I have a transfer opportunity there and naturally I want to check it out. My email is nicolepatison@yahoo.com.au
Silvia if you know any students from there perhaps you could copy this message to a class where they are active?
Hi Nicole 🙂
I’ve emailed you privately re the agility in Perth
Megan and Liryk 🙂
Silvia,
I guess I too have a question about age. Punk is 10.5 months old. A little on the young side I think to be doing full height AF. What do you think age wise?
Also, on the pivoting into heel/side positions. Do you actually use this for formal heeling? If so, is it pretty easy to get rid of the actual contact part of the trick? I would think so. I know I’ve seen lots of video of your dogs heeling and they don’t look to be touching you.
Ok, so here’s our abomination of a first try on the AF. This video should probably come with a warning as it might turn your stomach. I had a hard time getting him to run on the thing at first which is why I was clicking the up. Then after he gets the hang of it… It’s probably a little shy of 1.5m. Anyway, at the end I get the *bright* idea of throwing his ball to see if that will help him chip in with another stride. I don’t know what I was thinking. At any rate he just tracks the ball and attempts to get it nearly killing himself. You can’t see him land but as you can imagine it wasn’t pretty but he didn’t flip over and seems fine.
What do I do with this? I’m so used to the 4 hit AF from the other method i’ve taught i’m not sure what i’m looking for here. Is he always going to do a 1 hit wonder on the down? Should I put this on the back burner and wait for him to mature a bit so he doesn’t kill himself?
Thanks for your help!
-grace
That’s the same video on DW… But I can imagine what happened on A-frame, it’s not uncommon if you’re not extra careful at the beginning. At this age, I actually wouldn’t do A-frame at all anyway… -- Maybe wait till towards the end of the class and do some of it then so that I can see how it’s going. 2 hits up one down might be quite realistic for him yes… Bi does it and while it looked somewhat scary at first, it looks really safe and controlled now…
Thanks! Sorry about the video. I’m not going to bother to post it since I will just put it on the back burner for now. He was doing mostly 2 hits which were scary enough and then the last 1 he didn’t bother hitting at ALL on the way down -- shudder.
Yeap, been there, that’s why I was warning to not do it with speed at first. Start him right at the base next time and only keep moving him further if he is running vs. flying. You want two hits up, so move him closer immediately if he is going for one.
I don’t understand the difference: when should we have speed and when not?
Oh, sorry, forgot on that heeling question in the middle! That’s how I teach heeling position yes and actually, my dogs are touching me slightly -- here, the judges prefer it over loose, too-far heeling that I sometimes see in US obedience and are fine with it as long as you can walk normally (meaning that the dog shouldn’t be leaning on you, but can touch you some -- it’s hard to say because of the coat anyway). If you don’t want touching, click&reward for closeness without touching you.
Silvia, I couldn’t train last week (so its been almost 2 weeks) because we had no electricity (no water, light, heat or phone in the whole area) at our place with the yard… and getting back to it today I think I am sloppy with my clicking and marking, sometimes clicking for high hits and sometimes forgetting to click or mark verbally the good ones… also, Stella has been licking and licking her right hind foot for a couple of days, but I can’t figure out what the problem is, one of her toes does seem a little red near the pad, that could be it she doesn’t seem lame to me, but sometimes hind end lameness is hard for me to see…
this could be tho why she was slower this session… but also I added back obstacles at either end… For this session, one end has a tunnel and the other has jumps in several positions, although I only asked her coming off the DW to take the jump straight ahead (later today I tired some turns, tomorrow maybe with video)
in any case, however sloppy I am with my clicking, Stella seems to be doing ok… only one real leap, and two or three runs where she slowed to a trot for some reason…
however, what concerns me is that even when she hits the contact nicely, her last stride on the board is usually a little different from the rest of her running which worries me… I think her head comes up and its bouncier?
(I apologize the video has no slow motion… my computer is finicky and sometimes just won’t do it)
So here we are:
we are at 38 inches (took a tape measure out tonight) do you think I might be able to go to full height in a couple days? … there were 17 good out of 27, so that’s pretty good, though I know we could be much better… I guess I will post video again after a few sessions and see what you think??
thanks--Dinah
It’s true, she is often bouncier on her last stride, but for now, I would let it be as long as she is clearly in. There is certainly still some work to do, but I would let it be and go to full height and address the rest on full height so that you can keep working on it during winter. Glad to hear your yard is back to civilization!
Hi Silvia:
Here is Bender’s second session on the AFrame. I used a jump-frame-jump set-up. I sent him to wrap the jump first. We did 13 tries at 5’3″ (1.6m) and then raised it to 5’6″(1.67m) which is full height here in Canada. We will also be competing in the U.S. so he will need to do 5’9″(1.75m). It went very well with all the hits in the contact but as expected they were high.
Shona and Bender
All hits is a good start! I would like him somewhat deeper and better hind feet separation and reach forward would help a lot with that -- his striding is very nice otherwise. As he doesn’t seem to have flying tendencies, you can try a tunnel to tunnel set-up or throwing a toy in advance, it might get him deeper -- try and see.